Which RC paper + lith developer + gold toner = blue?

[psvensson]

I've started using gold toner quite a bit, and really like the cold tones I get on MGIV Warmtone and the positively blue tones I get with Forte Polywarmtone, both developed with regular warmtone developer.

I'd like to get this same cold or blue look on my lith prints, but Polywarmtone tones a pinkish purple after lith developer. It's a fairly attractive hue by itself, but doesn't fit a lot of subjects. Anyone know of an RC paper that tones blue in gold toner after lith developer?

 

[psvensson]

Hum, now I look at Tim Rudman's lith materials update on http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art031.html, and I see he tones what appears to be Forte Polywarmtone with gold and gets a beautiful blue tone. Weird.

 

[Travis Nunn]

My guess is the Polywarmtone he's referring to is FB.

 

[karavelov]

My guess is the Polywarmtone he's referring to is FB.

Forte makes Polywarmtone also on RC base.

 

[psvensson]

I think t_nunn is right about Rudman displaying the fiber version. He does most of his stuff on fiber, I think. And the RC version of PWT gives me purple.

 

[Travis Nunn]

Forte makes Polywarmtone also on RC base.

I'm aware of that.

 

[Mark Layne]

The best gold tone snow blue I have had is on Fomatone MG and Forte PW17

Mark

 

[Travis Nunn]

I get some really nice blues on Kentmere Art Classic. I'm not sure if you open to printing on FB, but Art Classic is a really beautiful paper. These two lith prints were printed on it.

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And this one was printed on Forte Fortezo, another favorite of mine.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sorry, not much help on the RC side, although Tim Rudman does say that the Foma MG RC lith prints exactly as the FB version.

 

[psvensson]

Those are some freaky prints on the Kentmere! Because of the split, they almost look colorized. Nice blue.

Thanks Travis and Mark, I will try Fomatone MG RC.

 

[tim rudman]

I'd like to get this same cold or blue look on my lith prints, but Polywarmtone tones a pinkish purple after lith developer. It's a fairly attractive hue by itself, but doesn't fit a lot of subjects. Anyone know of an RC paper that tones blue in gold toner after lith developer?

There are about 10 or 12 RC papers that Lith print well Peter. You will find a full list in the new book, but I can't publish it before the book is out.

Just about any paper lith printed will give a good blue in gold toner of the direct type (I'm referring to the thiocyanate & gold based toners, and others but not the sulphiding mixtures).

The colour you get depends firstly on the paper and/or how you develop it. Secondly it depends on how you tone the paper.
Very fine grained lith prints that have been snatched early - or those using the extra heavy exposure techniques like my 'Turbo Lith' - are ultra warm toned. Many papers processed this way will initially go red in the gold toner, then as the red gives way to blue they go through a range of purples, violet etc and finally, if you are patient enough, move to a clear porcelin type of blue colour - so you have a pretty wide range of options. Prints snatched later and/or thos of a low key (predominantly dark tones) with a lot of large grains will commonly go to a blue-black, much colder.

The 2-bath lith development processes also generally give excellent blues. (these are much 'newer' and are written up in WOLP)

As you say, PWT liths well and gives a lovely range of blues in gold. Forte Polygrade, Polygrade V and Forte coldtone RC are colder in tone and could possibly suit your needs better? Having said that you will get lovely blues with Fomatone even though it is very warm, its a question of finding the colour you want for a particular image and that is difficult to describe in words.

BTW, I received my first 2 copies of the new book today from the advance air-shipped 12 copies for media reviews. I must say it does look very handsome! Even better than I thought it would and your 2 images have reproduced very well

Actually - on topic - the only one which really didn't reproduce well was one of mine which was a 2-bath lith polychrome partly low key print, gold toned to a dark deep cool midnight blue. It came out in neutral greys - I think the only repro casualty in the book.
Tim

 

[Travis Nunn]

Hi Tim, slightly off topic here, but do you have any information regarding the status of Art Classic? The only thing I've seen is on Kentmere's website that says they hope to have a replacement named Classic Matt, which won't have the same texture as Art Classic. When I spoke with you about it at the APUG conference you said you hadn't had a chance to test it yet, I was wondering if you've experimented with it yet. Or, if its in the new book, I'll just wait 'til then.

 

[tim rudman]

Hi Tim, slightly off topic here, but do you have any information regarding the status of Art Classic? The only thing I've seen is on Kentmere's website that says they hope to have a replacement named Classic Matt, which won't have the same texture as Art Classic. When I spoke with you about it at the APUG conference you said you hadn't had a chance to test it yet, I was wondering if you've experimented with it yet. Or, if its in the new book, I'll just wait 'til then.

Hi Travis
Well the info in the book is up to date at the time of going to press, including the Art Classic changes.
The emulsion will be the same I am told. The paper will have to be from a new supplier as the only manufacturer of the original base left the market.
I have seen the protypes that were under consideration and they look very nice - quite different but very nice. The tones in regular dev are good but there were no samples available for lith testing - which is not its main market of course. As you know, Lith can sometime reveal differences that are not apparent with normal processing.
I was away for a month throughout June and have been really busy sisnce I got back so I haven't been in touch since then I'm afraid.
Tim

 

[Travis Nunn]

Thanks for the info Tim. I'm really looking forward to your new book!

 

[timeUnit]

Slightly OT, but...

Which Ready-Made gold toners are good on lith prints?

(In Sweden, raw chemicals are difficult to obtain. I think gold chloride might be extra difficult...)

 

[Ole]

The only gold toner I've used so far is Tetenal's. It's good for anything from lith prints to POP and van Dykes, and seems to last for a very long time too. Mine is getting weak, but that's no wonder considering the amount of POP (and other prints) I've put through it.

 

[tim rudman]

Slightly OT,
Which Ready-Made gold toners are good on lith prints? QUOTE]

I agree, Tetenal gold toner is outstanding. It will last until you exhaust it.
Fotospeed gold toner is equivalent.
There are few others as some have left the market, but surf your available producers (in Sweden) just in case - we are seeing a few new products emerging now as other suppliers go and leave a vacuum.
Tim

 

[Travis Nunn]

I've tried Nelson's Gold from PF, but I had problems mixing it properly. Fotospeed is the only other gold toner I've used and I like it.

 

[psvensson]

I just tried gold toning lith-developed Fomatone MG and Polygrade V. They both gave me essentially the same purple as Polywarmtone, except for one Fomatone print, which had some chaotic development. It toned blue in the shadows, and purple in the highlights - very odd and attractive, but probably not repeatable.

Now I don't know whether I blame my homemade lith developer or the homemade gold toner for the general absence of blue tones.

My developer is similar to this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists). But I've also tried a commercial developer, Kodalith RT. Toning those prints also gave me purple. (I prefer my own formula, which gives more interesting hues on non-toned prints.)

My homemade gold toner is just ammonium thiocyanate + gold chloride. It acts as expected on non-lithed prints, toning them blue.

Maybe I'll have to wait for Tim's book, so I can get some new homebrew developer formulas!

 

[tim rudman]

I just tried gold toning lith-developed Fomatone MG and Polygrade V. They both gave me essentially the same purple as Polywarmtone, except for one Fomatone print, which had some chaotic development. It toned blue in the shadows, and purple in the highlights - very odd and attractive, but probably not repeatable.

Now I don't know whether I blame my homemade lith developer or the homemade gold toner for the general absence of blue tones.

My developer is similar to this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists). But I've also tried a commercial developer, Kodalith RT. Toning those prints also gave me purple. (I prefer my own formula, which gives more interesting hues on non-toned prints.)

My homemade gold toner is just ammonium thiocyanate + gold chloride. It acts as expected on non-lithed prints, toning them blue.

Maybe I'll have to wait for Tim's book, so I can get some new homebrew developer formulas!

I wonder if you are toning to completion? Maybe try toning for much longer as the end point is most commonly (for me) more blue than purple, but often goes through purples & violets on the way. But of course, I haven't used your home made developer and as I said in an earler post here, development can play a big role in the final colour, both of the untoned and toned print. Snatch point and exposure can be major factors here as explained. It's back to the old question of grain size - as in Tim's 2 golden rules ;-)

**"Maybe I'll have to wait for Tim's book, so I can get some new homebrew developer formulas"**
There are some dev formulae in it but possibly you may have them all. The emphasis of this book is much less on formulae and how to do. It is designed to be a companion to the 1st book rather than a replacement, by updating info, materials and introducing newer emerging techniques, notably 2-bath lith processes.
Its bigger objective though is to inspire and instruct by showing some of the amazingly varied imagery being produced around the globe by different workers, what they use and how they acheive their results. This has not been done before and I think it is really exciting. There is some wonderful work IMHO.
I hope it will also help to put people in the lith community in touch with one another.
Tim
Tim

 

[psvensson]

I wonder if you are toning to completion? Maybe try toning for much longer as the end point is most commonly (for me) more blue than purple, but often goes through purples & violets on the way.

I wonder too. My toner is probably slower than commercial, but I've left prints in it for more than an hour, with no color change after the first 10 minutes.

 

[Travis Nunn]

Just for testing purposes, why don't you try a commercial lith developer and toner to see how things turn out? Maybe you'll get the blues that you're looking for.

 

[psvensson]

Just for testing purposes, why don't you try a commercial lith developer and toner to see how things turn out? Maybe you'll get the blues that you're looking for.

I have tried Kodalith RT, with the same result after toning. Boring developer, though.

 

[psvensson]

Hm.. could RC paper be the problem? I'm not set up to wash fiber properly, unfortunately.