Which ra4 chemicals?

[Thornarello]

Hello, I've just got back into darkroom work after a 17 year layoff. Wow, things have changed, what's happened to all the paper...and what about the cost? Anyway, I'm after a bit of advice. I'm using the Bellini Ra4 kit and getting reasonable results but any recommendations? Is the tetenal kit worth the extra money?
Also, I've been replenishing the chemicals after every working session in a nova tank which is usually about 1m2 of paper. Should I be replenishing more frequently ie. after every print? There's so much info available now compared with the past that I begin to doubt my methods! Any suggestions gratefully received.

 

[koraks]

Welcome back to color printing, and also welcome to Photrio!

I'm using the Bellini Ra4 kit and getting reasonable results but any recommendations? Is the tetenal kit worth the extra money?

I can't comment. Personally, I succumbed several years ago for FUJIFILM Minilab chemistry (CPRA is the current RA4 offering), which works out as the most economic option on a per-liter basis, and quality is of course consistent and excellent. The drawback is that their smallest kit is larger than what you'd typically get from a consumer-oriented brand, but the stuff keeps very well, so I never found this to be an issue. Other than this, I don't have the impression there are big differences in chemistry, especially not the developer, and I don't think you'll necessarily get much better results with one brand vs. another.

Also, I've been replenishing the chemicals after every working session in a nova tank which is usually about 1m2 of paper. Should I be replenishing more frequently ie. after every print?

What's the total volume of your working stock of especially the developer?
I usually replenish after 1 or 2m2 and my working volume is 2.5l (Durst RCP20). This works well with the Fuji chemistry.

 

[Thornarello]

Thanks so much for your reply. My working volume of developer is 1.9l so I guess I'm ok. What sort of shelf life have you found the Fuji chemicals to have and how have you stored them?

 

[koraks]

What sort of shelf life have you found the Fuji chemicals to have and how have you stored them?

My present batch of MP90 developer I've had for well over a year. This is a mono-concentrate that I've kept either in the factory-original jugs. Whenever I open one of those, I decant into entirely full, glass bottles. Blix is a similar story but I decant that into HDPE bottles. Don't try to store this kind of developer in HDPE, because it'll dissolve! PET and glass work fine.

The MP90 monoconcentrate is not made anymore, I think. The present developer is CPRA, which is a two-part concentrate. I've only received mine so it's still in factory packaging, but intend to store it in a similar way as outlined above. I'll decant the concentrates into glass bottles and then mix up part of the developer concentrates in working strength replenisher, and keep that in glass or PET bottles.

 

[BMbikerider]

The FUJI CRRA works very well and has outstanding long life qualities in my Nova processor once diluted. The concentrates once opened are not so good and I have had to throw out half a bottle. I am thinking that it may be better to treat it the same as way as I do Multigrade B&W and split the concentrate into much smaller glass bottles with polypropylene screw fit caps.

The only thing is Fuji do seem to be very flexible on the replenishment rates and I have never really found out what it should be exactly. Apparently over replenishment will spoil the working solution and give an immoveable colour cast.

 

[koraks]

I am thinking that it may be better to treat it the same as way as I do Multigrade B&W and split the concentrate into much smaller glass bottles with polypropylene screw fit caps.

Yes. In an opened bottle with oxygen having access to it, I don't expect these concentrates to last longer than a few weeks!

The only thing is Fuji do seem to be very flexible on the replenishment rates and I have never really found out what it should be exactly.

That's because there is really no definitive answer. It's covered in one of their Technical Bulletins: https://asset.fujifilm.com/www/pt/f...b4264cadc42dab4c59075fb8/TB_RA4_E01_10-20.pdf
See page 17. For CPRA, the rate is 215-325ml/m2, but this assumes a pro lab workflow. They mention as high as 495ml/m2 for 'display materials' and as low as 180ml/m2 at times of high volumes (>0.75 tank turnovers per week). This shows the significant bandwidth and also that replenishment is really a case-by-case decision. For amateurs, this indeed does not give much to hold on to, since it's unclear where you'd end up compared to typical lab settings. I personally just stick to the middle of the range outlined by Fuji and err to the high side when rounding off. It may be wise to periodically replace the tank volume with fresh developer to prevent long-term drift (although I've done fine with a tank volume I maintained and replenished for 2-3 years!)

 

[Thornarello]

This all sounds really encouraging. Thanks for your input. I see the decision I need to make is whether I can afford to splash out on the initial costs of the Fuji chemicals.

 

[koraks]

Yes, it's really one of these cases where volume results in lower marginal costs, but the initial investment is substantially higher.

 

[BMbikerider]

Yes. In an opened bottle with oxygen having access to it, I don't expect these concentrates to last longer than a few weeks!



That's because there is really no definitive answer. It's covered in one of their Technical Bulletins: https://asset.fujifilm.com/www/pt/f...b4264cadc42dab4c59075fb8/TB_RA4_E01_10-20.pdf
See page 17. For CPRA, the rate is 215-325ml/m2, but this assumes a pro lab workflow. They mention as high as 495ml/m2 for 'display materials' and as low as 180ml/m2 at times of high volumes (>0.75 tank turnovers per week). This shows the significant bandwidth and also that replenishment is really a case-by-case decision. For amateurs, this indeed does not give much to hold on to, since it's unclear where you'd end up compared to typical lab settings. I personally just stick to the middle of the range outlined by Fuji and err to the high side when rounding off. It may be wise to periodically replace the tank volume with fresh developer to prevent long-term drift (although I've done fine with a tank volume I maintained and replenished for 2-3 years!)

Like you with I try to maintain the replenishment as per the volume suggested by the manufacturer. With Kodak Ektacolour the tank would be rigidly replenished with the Kodak recommended 100cc per 800 Sq Ins of paper in other words 10 sheets of 10x8 or the equivalent and the 2 ltr Nova tank would last up to 18 months and only drained to clean the tank out.

I have ordered a number of dark brown glass 1/2 litre bottles and a further number of 100cc dark brown bottles to store smaller quantities of stock solution. Experience has shown that with Ilford MG this will allow an opened 5 litre contained to be decanted into 9 x 1/2 litre bottles and 5 x 100cc bottles to be used as and when This will allow me to preserve good stock solution for over 18 months.

Hopefully this can be continued with RA4. splitting the bottles up as and when required and decanting the concentrate into the smaller bottles. Then when fresh working solution is required these 'sub'bottles' of concentrate. will be diluted.

It is not that easy to explain in writing without getting exceedingly boring, but it worked with Kodak, so I do not know why it should not work with Fuji.

 

[koraks]

but it worked with Kodak, so I do not know why it should not work with Fuji.

I do pretty much the same as what you're describing, and indeed, it works fine. Occasionally I get a bottle with some crystallization, especially during winter. Usually I just shrug, dilute it and don't worry about it.

 

[sillo]

I hate to sound like a broken record on these threads, but this is another amazing application for wine bladders. Been storing my RA4 developer replenisher and blix in them to replenish my Nova and have had this 10 liter batch of developer mixed since November of 2022. Printed yesterday with great results and the dev replenisher is the exact same color as the day I mixed it.

Did this with both Kodak and now Champion chemistry. Champion has the convenience of being a mono-concentrate, so I mix right into the 10 liter bladder.

 

[koraks]

I hate to sound like a broken record on these threads, but this is another amazing application for wine bladders.

I've got some sitting around here that I ordered recently and I intend to try them out for this purpose. So far, there are two things I really don't like about them:

1: They're not transparent. I use glass bottles currently and this makes it easy to tell if one bottle has shifted in color more than a reference bottle. With color developers, color shifting is a good indicator of oxygen permeability.

2: I don't find these bladders particularly convenient to fill or drain, let alone clean. I imagine they're intended for single use, but I personally dislike disposables and prefer reusable stuff. Landfilling is one of the major problems our society faces! Glass lasts pretty much forever, is easy to clean and otherwise also easy to work with.

They also seem quite fragile to me in comparison with bottles; let's see how this works out in real life and long-term use.

These wine bladders evidently also have advantages; they work out a little cheaper on a per-volume basis, and they are a little more space efficient.

So far, I'm not yet overly enthusiastic.

 

[sillo]

There's a fair bit of variation out there, I know some have foil + plastic lining. The Astra-Pouch branded ones I've become fond of are clear, solid EVOH and can be found with a large cap on the back that makes them relatively easy to clean and refill. I wouldn't reuse them over and over, but I'm on my 3rd refill of one of the 10 liter ones with no leaks or obvious fatigue yet. Probably will toss and replace after this batch is done, though I do agree with trying to reduce waste in the darkroom and you can't really beat glass there.

Filling can be a little bit of a hassle, but they sell this thing that can be easily whipped up at home that makes filling a breeze.

 

[Thornarello]

This is a new idea for me and something I will think about using. I'm guessing you can buy them empty rather than having the great excuse to drink 10 litres of wine.
Also, do you leave the stock developer in the Nova between printing sessions or drain into an air tight container. I'm guessing you're happy with the quality of the champion chemicals? And are you using CA paper, I know there's not much else available? Apologies for all the questions.

 

[koraks]

And are you using CA paper, I know there's not much else available?

Fuji manufacturers a rather broad range of papers. Confusingly, most of them have the word group "crystal archive" in their name. Notable exceptions are DPII and Maxima. I'd recommend either of these. If you're in the US, you may have to buy rolls instead of boxes of cut sheet to get these more premium papers. In Europe, there are apparently sellers even of cut sheet Maxima and certainly of DPII.

 

[sillo]

Lol yeah, you can buy them empty. They offer the option of just the bladders or bladders and the cardboard box to go with them. I leave my working solution in the nova with the floating lids, been happy with my results replenishing the working solution for 6 months. Haven't tried pushing it further than that though and that's the limit nova suggests in the manual. I have a 16x20 one so it's a lot of chemistry with very little exposed surface area so it takes a while to oxidize. I'm satisfied with the Champion stuff, just no idea of the availability outside the US and you have to buy pretty large quantities. 60 liters of dev and 40 liters of blix. I'm using Crystal Archive Super Type PDn. Started with CAII, but was never quite happy with the blacks and it just feels like cheap paper in general.

 

[mshchem]

Nova slot processors are brilliant.

 

[Thornarello]

That's good to know. I've been draining it off into 2 litre pop bottles and storing in the fridge-so maybe this is all a bit unnecessary and labour intensive. As regards paper, I'm cutting from a roll of ca2. It's...alright but a bit bland. Managed to buy a roll of Kodak edge that's fairly new, so whites are ok and apart from being very very thin, the colour saturation is way better. Only problem is it's only an 8 inch roll. Tried DP ll, loved the colours but it had a metallic sheen which wasn't what I was after, so sold it. Would be very interested to know where I can find some Maxima in UK...

 

[Thornarello]

Oh and it's so nice to chat with other darkroom users. Most people I know don't get why I'm getting back into this.

 

[koraks]

I don't know who specifically retails Maxima in the UK, but it's a regular list item for Fuji distributors. I'd suggest getting in touch with your favorite retailer and simply asking them if they can put a roll on order for you.

However, the surface finish is identical to DPII, so if you don't like DPII, Maxima won't be much different in this respect.

Oh and it's so nice to chat with other darkroom users.

There's some of us still, fortunately. And more than we realize, but it's difficult to pull us all together. Working on it, though!

 

[Thornarello]

I was using the pearl version of dpll which is a metallic finish. The normal dpll sounds worth a try.

 

[koraks]

Ah, right. The glossy is more, well, conventional. I quite like it, but preferences for surface finish are always very personal.

 

[BMbikerider]

Lol yeah, you can buy them empty. They offer the option of just the bladders or bladders and the cardboard box to go with them. I leave my working solution in the nova with the floating lids, been happy with my results replenishing the working solution for 6 months. Haven't tried pushing it further than that though and that's the limit nova suggests in the manual. I have a 16x20 one so it's a lot of chemistry with very little exposed surface area so it takes a while to oxidize. I'm satisfied with the Champion stuff, just no idea of the availability outside the US and you have to buy pretty large quantities. 60 liters of dev and 40 liters of blix. I'm using Crystal Archive Super Type PDn. Started with CAII, but was never quite happy with the blacks and it just feels like cheap paper in general.

Champion is available in UK in individual 1 litre containers which make 10 litres of working developer and the same for blix. the only anomaly is the starter you have to buy 2 x 1 litre containers and that will last me, possibly for the rest of my life.

 

[sillo]

Champion is available in UK in individual 1 litre containers which make 10 litres of working developer and the same for blix. the only anomaly is the starter you have to buy 2 x 1 litre containers and that will last me, possibly for the rest of my life.

I've barely made a dent in my first starter bottle, even with the huge quantity of working solution my Nova requires. That's nice you can at least find individual bottles of the replenisher. The suppliers here I've found only sell it in 6x cases. The stuff seems to keep well enough though so I should be able to make my way through it without too much waste.

At least it's better than the 6 bottles of developer starter that Fuji makes you buy. I can't even imagine a lab making their way through that in a reasonable time.

 

[koraks]

At least it's better than the 6 bottles of developer starter that Fuji makes you buy.

Here in NL, the Fuji catalog currently lists single bottles of starter as well AFAIK. It used to be packs of 6, but apparently they've let that go now and even the local distributor is breaking up those cartons to distribute single bottles.