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Which is more accurate, using measuring syringes with liquid developer concentrates or measuring spoons with development powders?

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Alan Townsend

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I will admit to never using measuring spoons for homebrew developers mostly due to the complex nature of using so many spoons of one size and so many other spoons of another size and have always used a scale for weighing powdered components. I recently spent much time working with a homebrew developer concentrate MC-glycerol and had significant issues with consistent results due to measurement errors that I had not expected. A few days ago I ordered this set of measuring spoons on Amazona:


This set of five spoons goes down to 1/64 of a teaspoon. I was not aware these were available, and it changes everything for me. 1/64 of a teaspoon gives me exactly 0.05 grams of metol, exactly what I need for 500ml Gainers original MC developer mixed 1:1. Another very clever aspect of Gainers developers from 1993 is they use even teaspoon measures for 3 chemicals in the case of the metol version. My version of this, which uses sodium carbonate monohydrate rather than anhydrous, and is for 1/4 the amount of developer is:

sodium carbonate monohydrate 1 tsp
ascorbic acid 1/8 tsp
metol 1/64 tsp
water 500 ml

This is extremely easy to mix, and very accurate provided a good box cutter blade is used to level the spoons. I was always envious of people using measuring syringes to mix their homebrew developers from liquid concentrates that were made using a good scale with fair amounts of chemical to make stable solutions in glycols and other polyols for stability, and always wanted to try that, only without using phenidone. When I started doing this, I have nothing but trouble mixing my concentrates in glycerol solution with a measuring syringe. The troubles included:

1. The 10 ml syringes I got read 1 ml when the syringe was empty. This was very confusing since I always thought empty meant zero. So getting in the habit of adding 1 to everything I need was challenging.

2. Very difficult reading the scale on the syringes. Mine have 3 different units but the ml scale is very hard to read. I only want an ml scale, but got some extras at no charge. When measuring a fluid, you have to fill the syringe, then discharge until a certain level is read, but that level is invisible, so you have to subtract from the higher number and use that since you can only read upward not downward. For example, I need 3.6 ml. So after filling, I push the plunger down until I see 5 ml -0.4 ml to known when to stop. So I need to add 2 and then suptract 0.4, not easy to remember, so have to repeat several times to get it right.

3. After filling the syringe and then slowly ejecting excess until reaching desired amount, while holding it but putting zero pressure on the plunger, solution continues to dribble out slowly due to gravity, density, and oiliness. How do I lock the plunger? Put the cap back on, which takes a few seconds? Try to instantly dump the syringe without a time delay? This may be worse for glycerol than glycol due to greater density.

4, Thermal expansion or compression. Glycerol has a large amount of thermal expansion with heat, so to have an accurate measure, I need to stabilize the temperature of the cooncentrate along with the water I use for mixing. I have not being doing this, but should have, since my work space is always 5-6 df colder than the 70 deg. F I stability with.

I wasn't aware of all these issues with measuring syringes. It may just be the ones I bought. For myself and others using metol, I believe it much easier an more accurate to use measuring spoons with chemistry more compatible with them. I also was not aware I could get 1/64 tsp measuring spoon. If 1/256 tsp are available, users of penidone could use them, although it may be hard to breath without blowing it away.

Comments and suggestions are very welcome, especially if people can steer me to better measuring syringes meaning those that read zero when empty and have clearly marked ml only. 🙂
 

MattKing

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Best choice is to use weight, not volume, plus ~lab grade equipment and techniques.
For many things though - where precision isn't as necessary - things like spoons are fine.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I will admit to never using measuring spoons for homebrew developers mostly due to the complex nature of using so many spoons of one size and so many other spoons of another size and have always used a scale for weighing powdered components. I recently spent much time working with a homebrew developer concentrate MC-glycerol and had significant issues with consistent results due to measurement errors that I had not expected. A few days ago I ordered this set of measuring spoons on Amazona:


This set of five spoons goes down to 1/64 of a teaspoon. I was not aware these were available, and it changes everything for me. 1/64 of a teaspoon gives me exactly 0.05 grams of metol, exactly what I need for 500ml Gainers original MC developer mixed 1:1. Another very clever aspect of Gainers developers from 1993 is they use even teaspoon measures for 3 chemicals in the case of the metol version. My version of this, which uses sodium carbonate monohydrate rather than anhydrous, and is for 1/4 the amount of developer is:

sodium carbonate monohydrate 1 tsp
ascorbic acid 1/8 tsp
metol 1/64 tsp
water 500 ml

This is extremely easy to mix, and very accurate provided a good box cutter blade is used to level the spoons. I was always envious of people using measuring syringes to mix their homebrew developers from liquid concentrates that were made using a good scale with fair amounts of chemical to make stable solutions in glycols and other polyols for stability, and always wanted to try that, only without using phenidone. When I started doing this, I have nothing but trouble mixing my concentrates in glycerol solution with a measuring syringe. The troubles included:

1. The 10 ml syringes I got read 1 ml when the syringe was empty. This was very confusing since I always thought empty meant zero. So getting in the habit of adding 1 to everything I need was challenging.

2. Very difficult reading the scale on the syringes. Mine have 3 different units but the ml scale is very hard to read. I only want an ml scale, but got some extras at no charge. When measuring a fluid, you have to fill the syringe, then discharge until a certain level is read, but that level is invisible, so you have to subtract from the higher number and use that since you can only read upward not downward. For example, I need 3.6 ml. So after filling, I push the plunger down until I see 5 ml -0.4 ml to known when to stop. So I need to add 2 and then suptract 0.4, not easy to remember, so have to repeat several times to get it right.

3. After filling the syringe and then slowly ejecting excess until reaching desired amount, while holding it but putting zero pressure on the plunger, solution continues to dribble out slowly due to gravity, density, and oiliness. How do I lock the plunger? Put the cap back on, which takes a few seconds? Try to instantly dump the syringe without a time delay? This may be worse for glycerol than glycol due to greater density.

4, Thermal expansion or compression. Glycerol has a large amount of thermal expansion with heat, so to have an accurate measure, I need to stabilize the temperature of the cooncentrate along with the water I use for mixing. I have not being doing this, but should have, since my work space is always 5-6 df colder than the 70 deg. F I stability with.

I wasn't aware of all these issues with measuring syringes. It may just be the ones I bought. For myself and others using metol, I believe it much easier an more accurate to use measuring spoons with chemistry more compatible with them. I also was not aware I could get 1/64 tsp measuring spoon. If 1/256 tsp are available, users of penidone could use them, although it may be hard to breath without blowing it away.

Comments and suggestions are very welcome, especially if people can steer me to better measuring syringes meaning those that read zero when empty and have clearly marked ml only. 🙂

I always stuck to measuring in grams. Everything else goes against my grain a bit, but I'm getting closer to your question. My syringes (bought at a local pharmacy) read '0' when empty. I fill them fully, then empty them to the desired amount, and then use that amount. pretty straightforward. I haven't found anything similar on Amazon, but I could possibly take a picture of one.
 
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Alan Townsend

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Are you saying that the syringe does not have a zero marking?
No, the zero marking is at the bottom of the black rubber plunger, so can't be read due to black text against black background having no contrast. Reading above that black rubber plunger is the 1 which can be read against the white color of the plunger just above that black piece. It's a poor design. In other words, the black rubber piece at the bottom of the plunger covers the readings between 0 and 1 ml so those are not readable. I must read above the black piece where there is a white plastic behind the markings.
 

gbroadbridge

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No, the zero marking is at the bottom of the black rubber plunger, so can't be read due to black text against black background having no contrast. Reading above that black rubber plunger is the 1 which can be read against the white color of the plunger just above that black piece. It's a poor design. In other words, the black rubber piece at the bottom of the plunger covers the readings between 0 and 1 ml so those are not readable. I must read above the black piece where there is a white plastic behind the markings.

But when you immerse in liquid and pull up the syringe so that the 1ml marking is visible at the bottom of the plunger you have 1ml of liquid in the syringe - so I don't understand the issue.
 
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Alan Townsend

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But when you immerse in liquid and pull up the syringe so that the 1ml marking is visible at the bottom of the plunger you have 1ml of liquid in the syringe - so I don't understand the issue.

If I were measuring milk, I would be able to read the scale below the black rubber since there is something behind the scale to read against. It's the contrast. With a clear liquid, there is nothing there to reflect light. I guess I could put a piece of white tape on the outside opposite the scale, that might work. I will not set up a light to read the scale using transmission, that would be very inconvenient, and the whole reason for using these syringes was convenience. I find them inaccurate and inconvenient to use. The dripping after I stop pushing on the plunger is another big problem. I guess I can put my finger over the end. If I used one of these many times a day I could get used to them, but that's not going to be the case. As a wild guess, your eyesight may be better than mine, especially in low light conditions like I have in my darkroom area. Thanks for the response.
 
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wiltw

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The issue with 'partial' mix using powders is that one cannot have certainty that the proper proportions of the various chemical components is evenly distrubuted throughout the 'mix'. You could end up with too much of one ingredient and too little of another ingredient, and simply shaking the mix does not evenly distribute each of the many component chemicals.
 

Yezishu

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In my lab experience, using a measuring spoon(or analytical balance) is convenient for powders, while a syringe/graduated dropper(or pipette) is better for liquids. There shouldn't be a need to mix the developer in a darkroom environment? A piece of white paper and desk lamp as background is enough to see the scale via transmitted light.

When using a syringe for sticky liquid, I usually allow for a bit of waste and imprecision. For example, draw about 9.x ml into a 10 ml syringe, discharge some until it hits the 9 ml mark, and wipe off any excess liquid. Then, dispense 4 ml into one bottle (bringing the scale down to 5 ml) and another 4 ml into a second bottle (ending at the 1 ml mark). Stopping the flow requires more than just releasing the pressure. You have to grip the plunger to keep it from moving. We have plastic syringes ranging from 1ml to 50ml, as well as some 0.1ml specialty glass ones. In addition to manual use, they are also used in syringe pumps.
 
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beemermark

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I have a number of scales so I use them. But I also think (and have used) measuring spoons. Good ones are just as accurate. Don't loose sleep over it. It's not rocket science.
 
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