When will PhotoWarehouse put us out of our misery?

ChristopherCoy · Apr 29, 2021

I didn't buy any of this film, it was graciously given to me by the ever so wonderful @Valerie . If cameras and film and paper and darkroom goods are drugs, then Val is my dealer, and a very good one at that!

Although the way folks are going on about this Ultrafine, I might just buy something from "bulls testicles" California in the long run.

What is Ultrafine's strong points? I thought it was just a cheaper student alternative film, but it seems to have quite a following. I've never used it before.

Dusty Negative · Apr 29, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
What is Ultrafine's strong points? I thought it was just a cheaper student alternative film, but it seems to have quite a following. I've never used it before.

Well, here are my thoughts (to be consumed with salt - I am a relatively green film/darkroom guy):

1. Decent blacks and highlights handling.
2. Excellent mid-tone gradations.
3. Pleasing grain structure.
4. Great for printing.
5. Dries flat.
6. Scans well.

Paul Howell · Apr 29, 2021

SchwinnParamount said:
Photo Warehouse is from OxNard, CA. Would anyone every buy something from a place that named itself after a bulls testicles? I mean, just sayin.

I'm sure the people of Santa Barbara and Ventura love their weekend trips into Oxnard to buy film.

Unlike Freestyle Photo Wearhouse does not have a retail store, they will sell to folks who show at the door, but no displays.

pentaxuser · Apr 29, 2021

MattKing said:
Remember, it could very well be the case that the film is made elsewhere, but confectioned by Harman.

Yes, I'd have thought that if it was 100% Kentmere, pure and simple, then not only has Ilford decided to make it in 120 for someone else but sees no benefit in doing this for itself but this would appear to break its rule of not rebadging its film. Yes, I realise that in legal language it has not broken its rule about not rebadging Ilford films but rebadging Kentmere which has only ever been made by Ilford must surely get close to what one of our famous civil servants described as "economical with the truth"

Of course this assumes that the famous no rebadging of Ilford film pledge is still valid. It was as far as I recall a Simon Galley pledge prior to Pemberstone's takeover

pentaxuser

removed account4 · Apr 29, 2021

Dusty Negative said:
When will Photowarehouse let us move on with our lives and just come out and declare that the Ultrafine Extreme line is no more?

Kaput.
Terminado.
C’est la fin.

<SNIFF>
<WHIMPER>

I’m not crying. You’re crying!

IDK. might just be stuck in the Suez Canal ..
I miss all their Made in England films and papers

MattKing · Apr 29, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Yes, I'd have thought that if it was 100% Kentmere, pure and simple, then not only has Ilford decided to make it in 120 for someone else but sees no benefit in doing this for itself but this would appear to break its rule of not rebadging its film. Yes, I realise that in legal language it has not broken its rule about not rebadging Ilford films but rebadging Kentmere which has only ever been made by Ilford must surely get close to what one of our famous civil servants described as "economical with the truth"

Of course this assumes that the famous no rebadging of Ilford film pledge is still valid. It was as far as I recall a Simon Galley pledge prior to Pemberstone's takeover

pentaxuser

The latest word from Harman was that the policy remained unchanged - no re-badging of Ilford products - but with respect to Kentmere products, the policy was "no comment".
However, there are no Kentmere 120 films, and it is not simple to re-design a film designed for 135 to be used on 120 substrate, with backing paper.

destroya · Apr 29, 2021

down to 4 rolls of the 120 100 left. it was a good film for the price. found in my film freezer last week 5 bulk rolls of the 100, so I can still use that. I like the look of the 100 when developed as B&W slides. I like the look of foma 100 a little better, but much prefer the finishing quality of the Xtreme film.

dourbalistar · Apr 29, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
What is Ultrafine's strong points? I thought it was just a cheaper student alternative film, but it seems to have quite a following. I've never used it before.

Dusty Negative said:
Well, here are my thoughts (to be consumed with salt - I am a relatively green film/darkroom guy):

1. Decent blacks and highlights handling.
2. Excellent mid-tone gradations.
3. Pleasing grain structure.
4. Great for printing.
5. Dries flat.
6. Scans well.

I originally tried Ultrafine eXtreme 400 because it was an inexpensive budget film, but grew to really love the film. @Dusty Negative covers most of its strong suits. It has a weaker (or maybe non-existent) anti-halation undercoating, and can lend a glow to highlights. I happen to like that quality, but YMMV. I have an album full of image samples on my Flickr.

pentaxuser · Apr 29, 2021

MattKing said:
The latest word from Harman was that the policy remained unchanged - no re-badging of Ilford products - but with respect to Kentmere products, the policy was "no comment".
However, there are no Kentmere 120 films, and it is not simple to re-design a film designed for 135 to be used on 120 substrate, with backing paper.

Thanks, Matt. Your last sentence would appear to rule out it's being Kentmere.

I wonder how much light Henning Serger can or perhaps did throw on whose film it is?

pentaxuser

relistan · Apr 29, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks, Matt. Your last sentence would appear to rule out it's being Kentmere.

I wonder how much light Henning Serger can or perhaps did throw on whose film it is?

pentaxuser

I posted this earlier, but I don't know that people saw it. Availability in 120 doesn't rule out that it is Kentmere, because Rollei RPX films are also Kentmere and are available in 120. I also posted the link to the Fotoimpex description for CHM which essentially says that Fotoimpex CHM, Kentmere, and RPX are the same films. They of course don't mention Ultrafine Extreme, but that film is the same emulsion. Harman has white labeled Kentmere for a long time, to many different companies.

MattKing · Apr 29, 2021

relistan said:
I posted this earlier, but I don't know that people saw it. Availability in 120 doesn't rule out that it is Kentmere, because Rollei RPX films are also Kentmere and are available in 120. I also posted the link to the Fotoimpex description for CHM which essentially says that Fotoimpex CHM, Kentmere, and RPX are the same films. They of course don't mention Ultrafine Extreme, but that film is the same emulsion. Harman has white labeled Kentmere for a long time, to many different companies.

The point being though, that if Kentmere isn't sold in 120, then it can't be the same as Kentmere.
You have to change films in order to move them from a 135 substrate with one type of anti-halation to a 120 substrate with a different type of anti-halation plus backing paper.
Harman may very well have done that for the customer branding Rollei RPX in 120, and they (Harman) may be permitted by that customer to re-use that work for PhotoWarehouse, but the 135 and 120 versions of the films will have incorporated differences.
Those incorporated differences may have been designed to yield similar performance, but they will still be differences.

relistan · Apr 29, 2021

MattKing said:
The point being though, that if Kentmere isn't sold in 120, then it can't be the same as Kentmere.
You have to change films in order to move them from a 135 substrate with one type of anti-halation to a 120 substrate with a different type of anti-halation plus backing paper.
Harman may very well have done that for the customer branding Rollei RPX in 120, and they (Harman) may be permitted by that customer to re-use that work for PhotoWarehouse, but the 135 and 120 versions of the films will have incorporated differences.
Those incorporated differences may have been designed to yield similar performance, but they will still be differences.

I think we are splitting hairs here. Can we not call Delta 100 in 135 the same film as Delta 100 in 120? Yes there will be slight differences but nobody calls those different films. If RPX 100/400 is available in 120 and RPX 100/400 in 135 is the same film as Kentmere in 135, then can we not all agree that the 120 version is "the same as Kentmere" ?

MattKing · Apr 29, 2021

relistan said:
I think we are splitting hairs here. Can we not call Delta 100 in 135 the same film as Delta 100 in 120? Yes there will be slight differences but nobody calls those different films. If RPX 100/400 is available in 120 and RPX 100/400 in 135 is the same film as Kentmere in 135, then can we not all agree that the 120 version is "the same as Kentmere" ?

There actually are quite substantial differences in the makeup of the two versions (120 and 135) of the "same" film. It is a fairly major task to re-design one in order to obtain the same or similar performance as the other, particularly if the goal is to target the same development times for the same contrast performance.
It is "splitting hairs" if that work had already been done by Harman for their Kentmere branded product. But if the work was done for the Rollei re-branders, it is really a different issue.
If the Photo Wearhouse product in 120 is the same as the Rollei RPX product, than that (not the non-existent Kentmere 120 product) is the product comparison.
How confident are you that the Rollei RPX in 120 performs the same as the Rollei RPX in 135? Those two products may very well have substantial differences, despite the commonality in badging.

pentaxuser · Apr 29, 2021

relistan said:
Harman has white labeled Kentmere for a long time, to many different companies.

If this is the case then I am puzzled as to what the reasons are for Ilford not producing a 120 Kentmere. I just cannot work out why with the cost of setting up a 120 line for Kentmere there is no reason not to launch a 120 Kentmere film?

There may be good reasons that I haven't considered but if so can you say what you think they may be?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Dusty Negative · Apr 29, 2021

pentaxuser said:
If this is the case then I am puzzled as to what the reasons are for Ilford not producing a 120 Kentmere. I just cannot work out why with the cost of setting up a 120 line for Kentmere there is no reason not to launch a 120 Kentmere film?

There may be good reasons that I haven't considered but if so can you say what you think they may be?

Thanks

pentaxuser

So as not to compete with the Ilford line?

machine · Apr 29, 2021

Well, there is definitely a squeeze on supply of film in the last year. Probably on account both of production dropping, and demand increasing. The prices of film, e.g. Ilford brands, has gone up, as also for several developers. Sometimes it falls, then increases again.

I would not imagine why the maker and the seller of a film like Ultrafine Xtreme, which sold well, would want to pull the plug on it. It is, after all, in everyone's interest to sell more film. So wait, and this too shall pass, and you shall be back to shooting the film you know/like, once again.

relistan · Apr 30, 2021

MattKing said:
There actually are quite substantial differences in the makeup of the two versions (120 and 135) of the "same" film. It is a fairly major task to re-design one in order to obtain the same or similar performance as the other, particularly if the goal is to target the same development times for the same contrast performance.
It is "splitting hairs" if that work had already been done by Harman for their Kentmere branded product. But if the work was done for the Rollei re-branders, it is really a different issue.
If the Photo Wearhouse product in 120 is the same as the Rollei RPX product, than that (not the non-existent Kentmere 120 product) is the product comparison.
How confident are you that the Rollei RPX in 120 performs the same as the Rollei RPX in 135? Those two products may very well have substantial differences, despite the commonality in badging.

Fair enough Matt. In the end I don’t really care what name we call it. The film available in 120 that is produced by Harman and labeled Rollei RPX is the same 120 film as UFX, whatever we want to call that. The 135 film produced by Harman as Kentmere, Rollei RPX, Agfaphoto APX, and Fotoimpex CHM is the same as UFX in 135.

pentaxuser · Apr 30, 2021

Dusty Negative said:
So as not to compete with the Ilford line?

Well it remains a mystery or at least if not a mystery then all the explanations I have seen so far tend to raise almost as many questions as a consequence of providing answers to other questions

You might for instance argue that what was a new film line called Kentmere, initiated solely by Ilford competes with the Ilford line in 135 and yet we have Kentmere 135 .

We may never know what the situation is for sure.

pentaxuser

Wallendo · Apr 30, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks, Matt. Your last sentence would appear to rule out it's being Kentmere.

I wonder how much light Henning Serger can or perhaps did throw on whose film it is?

pentaxuser

This might answer that question:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...mid-tones-than-fp4.176978/page-2#post-2305550

Donald Qualls · Apr 30, 2021

pentaxuser said:
You might for instance argue that what was a new film line called Kentmere, initiated solely by Ilford competes with the Ilford line in 135 and yet we have Kentmere 135 .

From what I understood, Kentmere existed before Harman Technologies bought them out (possibly hiring their coating and confectioning from Harman). Hence why we have Kentmere paper and film products -- because the Harman management decided to continue those as a secondary/discount product line alongside the main Ilford brand.

I don't see this one as a mystery.

ChristopherCoy · May 3, 2021

Putting my bulk roll of UF in the loader tonight. Tomorrow I start experimenting.

Dusty Negative · May 3, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
Putting my bulk roll of UF in the loader tonight. Tomorrow I start experimenting.

Enjoy!

Paul Howell · May 3, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
From what I understood, Kentmere existed before Harman Technologies bought them out (possibly hiring their coating and confectioning from Harman). Hence why we have Kentmere paper and film products -- because the Harman management decided to continue those as a secondary/discount product line alongside the main Ilford brand.

I don't see this one as a mystery.

70s, Sacrament, there was a discount house that sold a lot of off brand electronics a few cameras. but they carried EFKE films, and Kentmere paper, so even then Kentmere was a 3rd party coater of inexpensive papers, maybe film as well dont recall.

ChristopherCoy · May 3, 2021

First bulk load ever. I may never buy a prepackaged roll again. I love being able to load 12, 24, 36, or any other number of exposures.

Donald Qualls · May 4, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Haha. I hear you. Ran any disappointing searches for 100ft color rolls on eBay yet?

You can get Vision3 (all emulsions, with the remjet on it) in 400 foot rolls and spool them down to 100 foot to fit your bulk loader ("roll your own Cinestill") -- that's about all the color bulk film I've seen the last couple years.

When will PhotoWarehouse put us out of our misery?

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