When is lens fungus not an issue?

[marcmarc]

Hi everyone,
I recently received a Rolleicord IV. I posted in the medium format forum about whether I should go ahead and spend the money in getting it back into spec. So I decided to go ahead with it and dropped it off to Harry Fleenor whose shop is within driving distance to to me. He's going to clean the shutter blades, install a new focusing screen and re-align the front plate. However, he emailed me earlier today to inform me that the rear surface of the taking lens has some fungi. He stated that it wont affect the photos I take with the camera. Harry has a stellar reputation for Rollei repairs and maintenance so I trust him on that alone, but I'm wondering if I will really feel confident using this camera in this condition. It may not affect the pictures for now, but what about in the future? My limited knowledge with lens fungus is that it grows and eats into the glass thereby rendering a lens useless. I emailed Harry to ask if he was able to clean it and if the glass was unaffected. I probably won't hear from him until tomorrow but this really bothers me. This is why I just don't like using vintage cameras, my experience with a F2 I used to use was that old cameras just suck up more and more money in repairs and maintenance because there always is something going wrong with them. I was really excited today after leaving Harry's and now this. I appreciate his telling me this, but I'm really hesitant right now to sink $300 in maintenance for a camera where fungus is now using my lens as an all-you-can-eat-buffet. So my question to you folks who repair cameras and know about these things, what exactly am I up against here?
Thanks for replies and have a happy and safe New Year.
Marc.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I understand that once the lens has been cleaned the fungus problem is gone. As with all cameras and lenses you will have to store the camera in a good dry location. Exposing the lens to sun light to have the UV light kill off any new fungus is something that you should do will any lens time to time.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Trust whatever Harry says. He's good like that.

 

[gone]

What you are up against is paying Fleenor whatever he charges for an estimate, taking some pics of the camera, and selling it on eBay w/ an accurate description for whatever you can get. You can buy at least two 'cords for that $300 if you're so inclined. Fungus on a rear element will usually affect image quality, unless it's just on the very edges. But it spreads if not cleaned or treated properly (lots of UV). There's a couple of Rolleicord IV's on there now for half that repair figure. You may see it differently, but I've always thought that putting $300-$400 into an old Rolleicord is not a sensible decision.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The following product is useful when mildew is a problem.

http://www.superslickstuff.com/lubricant/SunPac-Mildewcide.html

Place the camera with its back open in a plastic bag with the Sunpac bag. Close the bag and allow to stand for a few days. The bag contains paraformaldehyde powder which slowly releases formaldehyde gas. This treatment should kill any spores. Make sure that the bag is large enough to allow free circulation of the gas. There is a similar product called Di-Gas that would be used in the same way. This method is also good for leather camera cases that have gone moldy. After treatment allow the camera to air out for a couple of days before use.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Hi everyone,
I recently received a Rolleicord IV. I posted in the medium format forum about whether I should go ahead and spend the money in getting it back into spec. So I decided to go ahead with it and dropped it off to Harry Fleenor whose shop is within driving distance to to me. He's going to clean the shutter blades, install a new focusing screen and re-align the front plate. However, he emailed me earlier today to inform me that the rear surface of the taking lens has some fungi. He stated that it wont affect the photos I take with the camera. Harry has a stellar reputation for Rollei repairs and maintenance so I trust him on that alone, but I'm wondering if I will really feel confident using this camera in this condition. It may not affect the pictures for now, but what about in the future? My limited knowledge with lens fungus is that it grows and eats into the glass thereby rendering a lens useless. I emailed Harry to ask if he was able to clean it and if the glass was unaffected. I probably won't hear from him until tomorrow but this really bothers me. This is why I just don't like using vintage cameras, my experience with a F2 I used to use was that old cameras just suck up more and more money in repairs and maintenance because there always is something going wrong with them. I was really excited today after leaving Harry's and now this. I appreciate his telling me this, but I'm really hesitant right now to sink $300 in maintenance for a camera where fungus is now using my lens as an all-you-can-eat-buffet. So my question to you folks who repair cameras and know about these things, what exactly am I up against here?
Thanks for replies and have a happy and safe New Year.
Marc.

It's not an issue if the fungus is dead and all that remains is the etching or squiggles left over. Fungus can spread: elsewhere within the camera and to other areas of the optics. Treating it is the tricky part and treatments vary from old wives' remedies to the novel and somewhat unorthodox workshop approach of Ziess. That said, any large fungus in a lens can be a mighty PITA if it comes into sharp focus during work — a truly annoying spectacle that looks like a giant spider on your eyeball. I have a Pentax 67 right-angle magnifier that was successfully treated to kill the fungus growing inside (in two places) leaving two small 'etchings' of its presence (and I did that work myself). Aesthetics and visual concerns aside, if the fungus is alive and untreated, it can potentially spread around the Rolleicord, and/or to other equipment given the conditions ideal for transfer. As a rule, I steer clear of any old second hand equipment with live, untreated fungus or fungus of an unknown status. Just wisdom!

 

[marcmarc]

Thanks for the quick replies. I've always stored my lenses with silica packets that I change out from time to time. I guess the previous owner(s) weren't so careful with this Rolleicord. I'll know more when I hear back from Harry. Nice guy by the way. Maybe putting this money into a Rolleicord might not make sense to some, but I shoot an awful lot so I figure since the camera was given to me the money I put into it will buy me the assurance that it will be reliable for the next several years with steady usage. The cost Harry gave me was only slightly more then my original estimate from my usual go to repair shop. Rolleiflex cameras are out of my price range and even if they weren't I'm still buying a vintage camera that will most likely need some work.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

There are so many misconceptions about fungus.

Fungus will appear and spread only when conditions exist that are good for fungus - primarily high humidity and darkness. Take that away and fungus will not grow: that is, either it will not start or, if some fungus already exists, it will not spread.

Fungus does not spread from lens to lens. Rather, what happens is that the conditions that caused fungus in one lens will cause fungus in other lenses.

Here are some notes from Zeiss:

http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_us/website/service/fungus_on_lenses.html

 

[Grytpype]

Ordinary vinegar will kill and remove fungus instantly. On most lenses the rear element is extremely easy to take out, and if the fungus is only on the rear surface, you don't even need to do that, though if your repairer is cleaning the shutter-blades, I'd have thought he would clean all the optics while he is in there. I'm surprised he bothered to mention the fungus.

If fungus is dealt with before it has had time to develop it can often be removed without leaving any visible damage. If it develops further there will be coating loss, but I have only seen obvious etching of the glass in quite bad cases.

 

[marcmarc]

Ordinary vinegar will kill and remove fungus instantly. On most lenses the rear element is extremely easy to take out, and if the fungus is only on the rear surface, you don't even need to do that, though if your repairer is cleaning the shutter-blades, I'd have thought he would clean all the optics while he is in there. I'm surprised he bothered to mention the fungus.

If fungus is dealt with before it has had time to develop it can often be removed without leaving any visible damage. If it develops further there will be coating loss, but I have only seen obvious etching of the glass in quite bad cases.

I'm sure Harry will clean the entire camera while he has it. I won't get the camera back for two months which I don't mind since I know how thorough he is. I glad he told me, maybe he did in case I decide to sell the camera in the future I'll know better then to describe it as "perfect." I have no idea about the history of this camera. I live in LA as does the gentleman who gave it to me, and LA generally doesn't get humid but maybe this camera was owned by someone else who lived in such an environment.

 

[marcmarc]

So while I'm here I'm thinking now maybe I should store my lenses out. I've always kept them in a camera bag in a closet with a handful of silica packets. As I mentioned, Los Angeles doesn't get too humid too often.

 

[Fixcinater]

It may have just been kept in the dark, think inside a leather case or in the original box.

Sometimes fungus cleans up without a trace. I've had several lenses come to me that way and after DIY cleaning, no damage at all to the coating. Even with some coating damage, you'd likely be surprised at how bad the condition can be before it affects the negatives.

 

[marcmarc]

It may have just been kept in the dark, think inside a leather case or in the original box.

Sometimes fungus cleans up without a trace. I've had several lenses come to me that way and after DIY cleaning, no damage at all to the coating. Even with some coating damage, you'd likely be surprised at how bad the condition can be before it affects the negatives.

Thanks. Hopefully Harry will have been able to remedy whatever he discovered before it was too late.

 

[RobC]

fungus only grows if it has food and the right conditions. Food comes in the form of protein and leather is pure protein. Don't use leather lens pouches or leather camera cases.
Remove the food source and the fungus dies. Then it only needs for the residue to be cleaned away which may leave some etching in lens coatings and/or glass but usually not bad enough to affect image quality as it its normally such a tiny percentage of the image forming area of the lens surface.

 

[marcmarc]

Well, Harry got back to me today. The fungus cannot be cleaned. He didn't elaborate on how much there is or where, just that I need to be careful about storing the camera when not in use which I already am with all my other cameras. I did enlarge some of the shots from my test rolls and they look fine so I guess I'm in the clear.

 

[marcmarc]

fungus only grows if it has food and the right conditions. Food comes in the form of protein and leather is pure protein. Don't use leather lens pouches or leather camera cases.
Remove the food source and the fungus dies. Then it only needs for the residue to be cleaned away which may leave some etching in lens coatings and/or glass but usually not bad enough to affect image quality as it its normally such a tiny percentage of the image forming area of the lens surface.

Good to know thanks. The Rolliecord he gave me was in a leather case so that may have contributed to it. I do have some leather pouches that I keep my 35mm lenses in so out to the trash heap they go. Er..the leather pouches that is not the lenses!

 

[Grytpype]

The fungus cannot be cleaned.

Fungus can always be cleaned. If it has eaten some of the coating you will usually still be able to see an 'image' of the area where the fungus was when you hold the lens at a certain angle, but if you look straight through the lens it will look completely clear. If a large area of coating has been removed it will reduce the benefits of the coating, but as RobC says, if it is only a small area, and the glass is not etched, it will have little, if any, effect on your photos. Obviously, if the glass is etched, this will remain visible when you look through, and can look like remaining fungus.

 

[RobC]

Good to know thanks. The Rolliecord he gave me was in a leather case so that may have contributed to it. I do have some leather pouches that I keep my 35mm lenses in so out to the trash heap they go. Er..the leather pouches that is not the lenses!

The problem with leather is that it provides a very nutrient rich feeeding and reproduction ground for fungus which then spreads into your lenses and cameras. Leather is not the only source of food but if present it is a masssive food source for fungus.

http://www.zeiss.co.uk/camera-lenses/en_gb/website/service/fungus_on_lenses.html

 

[Ko.Fe.]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

When lens is sold.

 

[marcmarc]

Fungus can always be cleaned. If it has eaten some of the coating you will usually still be able to see an 'image' of the area where the fungus was when you hold the lens at a certain angle, but if you look straight through the lens it will look completely clear. If a large area of coating has been removed it will reduce the benefits of the coating, but as RobC says, if it is only a small area, and the glass is not etched, it will have little, if any, effect on your photos. Obviously, if the glass is etched, this will remain visible when you look through, and can look like remaining fungus.

Harry did say he could send the lens to someplace in CO to be re-surfaced and re-coated but it would cost in the $100's. As mentioned my prints prior to this knowledge don't reveal any issues. I'll just have to keep an eye out as time goes on. If he didn't tell I'd never suspect anything.

 

[marcmarc]

When lens is sold.

Sadly true in some cases. Many years ago I purchased a Pentax lens off ebay that the seller described as perfect condition. When the lens arrived there was so much fungus it looked like a spider had gotten in there and spun a web. I sent the lens back and the seller took his time giving me a refund. That was the first and last time I ever bought a lens from an auction site.

 

[Bill Burk]

marcmarc

As Ko.Fe. pointed out, it's not likely to be a big issue until you go to sell the camera.

So it can't be "cleaned". But there is a way to get it fixed.

If you have the budget to send it to CO to be re-surfaced and re-coated, and you want to do it... you could.

If this is going to be the one camera you use, it may be worth it.

But if Harry recommends against it (because it's minor) and if you don't see it in your pictures... you don't have to do it to make the camera "more valuable".

Just do the polish and recoat operation if you think it will make the camera "more useful".

 

[pschwart]

Harry did say he could send the lens to someplace in CO to be re-surfaced and re-coated but it would cost in the $100's. As mentioned my prints prior to this knowledge don't reveal any issues. I'll just have to keep an eye out as time goes on. If he didn't tell I'd never suspect anything.

That would probably be John Stelten at Focal Point: http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro.html

I'm sure the IV will perform well after Harry is done, but I'd probably find another Rollei before sinking a lot into this one. I wouldn't polish and recoat a IV -- just buy a Rollei in better condition and save a bundle.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Sadly true in some cases. Many years ago I purchased a Pentax lens off ebay that the seller described as perfect condition. When the lens arrived there was so much fungus it looked like a spider had gotten in there and spun a web. I sent the lens back and the seller took his time giving me a refund. That was the first and last time I ever bought a lens from an auction site.

Why? That was the seller's fault, not the site. What was the seller's feedback rating?

 

[Bill Burk]

That would probably be John Stelten at Focal Point: http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro.html

I'm sure the IV will perform well after Harry is done, but I'd probably find another Rollei before sinking a lot into this one. I wouldn't polish and recoat a IV -- just buy a Rollei in better condition and save a bundle.

Thanks for the link. I miss Pacific Universal in Pasadena. Now I'm going to look through my collection to see if there's anything that needs work.

I think it would be fun to take an uncoated classic... and get it coated.

There are some discouraging words about fungus... Maybe it's not worth it in this case.

Also, I noted that John Stelten says deep scratches can't be polished out. That doesn't mean it's not worth it. One of the lenses I had polished and coated had a deep scratch and I knew that going in. I told them (Pacific Universal) to worry about that scratch. In the end I got a very nice lens that is probably better than when it was new even with the residual scratch.