What's wrong with my fixer?

Ed TLR · Mar 30, 2020

Looking for experience/knowledge with a fixer problem. Today I mixed a new gallon of Kodafix (from a brand new liquid concentrate solution). First I emptied out the old fixer from the jug, rinsed it out, then put in the new concentrate liquid with distilled water to make one gallon. When I was finished, I noticed that there were a lot of light yellow floating particles in the fixer, and it has a sulfur smell to it, not like the normal smell of fixer. What did I do wrong? Is distilled water a problem? I used distilled water simply because I live in an area with really hard water. Or are these floating particles something that might have been settled in the bottom of the jug, even though I rinsed it out? Or could it be a problem with my bottle of Kodafix? It's really new, not expired, and I didn't notice anything odd about it when it was still in the bottle in concentrate form. A couple of photos are attached so you can see the floating particles and some remnants when poured out of a measuring cup.. I'm bummed because I think I will have to thrown this batch out and start over. Thanks in advance for your advice.

cmacd123 · Mar 30, 2020

yep, bad fixer concentrate. Distilled water is very pure so is not a problem in mixing stuff. fixer that goes bad starts precipitating sulfur and so the sulfur smell and yellow flakes are "normal" with "Bad" fixer.

Randy Stewart · Mar 30, 2020

It may be a bad "new" bottle of fixer, but it could also be bits which came out of solution from the prior usage. I would pour the new batch through a drip coffee filter into a clean jug, rise the old bottle in very hot water, and save the new batch. I'd then do a film-end test on the new fixer to judge its function. If unsatisfied, I'd then toss the new batch.

Rick A · Mar 30, 2020

Toss it and buy a bottle of EcoPro Clearfix Neutral, you'll never go back to Kodak garbage again.

MattKing · Mar 30, 2020

The Kodafix is an excellent hardening fixer. The problem could be due to a damaged bottle, but I would bet that what you are seeing is residue from earlier use of the bottle.
It is hard to get rid of that residue once it builds up.

Sirius Glass · Mar 30, 2020

If available consider Ilford Rapid Fixer in liquid form or other liquid fixers. I use those and the Kodak dry fixers without problems.

NB23 · Mar 30, 2020

Yes separation. Those bits will stick to your film and be impossible to wash out.

Besides, your fixer won’t fix properly.

It’s a severely outdated fixer.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 31, 2020

cmacd123 said:
yep, bad fixer concentrate. Distilled water is very pure so is not a problem in mixing stuff. fixer that goes bad starts precipitating sulfur and so the sulfur smell and yellow flakes are "normal" with "Bad" fixer.

I agree the fixtures bad however you can save it if you filter through a coffee filter.

Ed TLR · Mar 31, 2020

Thanks everyone for the info. Must be a faulty product. The label says it was manufactured in January of this year and has an expiration in 2022. I’ll ask for a refund and go back to a powder in whatever brand I can find. So much stuff has been out of stock or back ordered (even pre-virus). Thanks again.

kevs · Mar 31, 2020

Hi Ed TLR,

Sometimes sulphur salts crystallise out of fixer solution but it shouldn't be much of a problem if you filter the solids out. I've never used Kodafix but most acid fixers are similar; I live in a hard water area and I never had a problem using tap water for mixing normal B&W chemistry. Most chemicals are buffered against minor tap water variations anyway.

To test the fixer, take a small piece of undeveloped B&W film and immerse it in the fixer, wait a few minutes and see if the film goes clear. If it does clear the film the fixer is fine to use; if it doesn't clear the film you should probably throw it away.

NB23 · Mar 31, 2020

kevs said:
Hi Ed TLR,

Sometimes sulphur salts crystallise out of fixer solution but it shouldn't be much of a problem if you filter the solids out. I've never used Kodafix but most acid fixers are similar; I live in a hard water area and I never had a problem using tap water for mixing normal B&W chemistry. Most chemicals are buffered against minor tap water variations anyway.

To test the fixer, take a small piece of undeveloped B&W film and immerse it in the fixer, wait a few minutes and see if the film goes clear. If it does clear the film the fixer is fine to use; if it doesn't clear the film you should probably throw it away.

Yes, the good old test. But how can you guarantee that the film will stay permanently fixed from this obviously bad fixer? I've had some 20 year old film that has started fading with dots and clouds all over them. I suspect it's from a bad fixer that I've used in the past. Nothing else could be the cause. I stubbornly over wash and overfix, by a minute or two, all my films ever since I started, from roll number 1.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 31, 2020

NB23 said:
Yes, the good old test. But how can you guarantee that the film will stay permanently fixed from this obviously bad fixer? I've had some 20 year old film that has started fading with dots and clouds all over them. I suspect it's from a bad fixer that I've used in the past. Nothing else could be the cause. I stubbornly over wash and overfix, by a minute or two, all my films ever since I started, from roll number 1.

The two-baths fixing method will guarantee well-fixed film.

NB23 · Mar 31, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
The two-baths fixing method will guarantee well-fixed film.

The two-bath method is for fb prints.
For film, the guarantee Is simply to use fresh fixer and not go over the rolls of film capacity as instructed by the manufacturer.

also, I’m not sure why two baths of bad fixer would suddenly work out. A multiplier of Zero is always zero.

kevs · Mar 31, 2020

NB23 said:
Yes, the good old test. But how can you guarantee that the film will stay permanently fixed from this obviously bad fixer? I've had some 20 year old film that has started fading with dots and clouds all over them. I suspect it's from a bad fixer that I've used in the past. Nothing else could be the cause. I stubbornly over wash and overfix, by a minute or two, all my films ever since I started, from roll number 1.

Leave the film in the fixer for twice or thrice the time it takes for it to clear; that will make sure any remaining silver salts are fixed out. Once the clearing time doubles from its original value, dump the old fixer and make some fresh. Exhausted fixer may never completely remove undeveloped silver salts from the film. Remember, T-Grain-style films like Kodak's T-Max range and Ilford's Delta range take twice as long to clear as conventional films, so you double the fixing time for those films.

The other way to ensure proper fixation is to use the two-bath method as you would with prints. The first bath removes most of the silver and the second fresher fixer completes the job. When the first fixer is exhausted, chuck it out and replace it with the second fixer, which you then replace with a fresh batch. Repeat this cycle x5 then start again with two fresh batches of fixer.

You're paying the price for taking shortcuts. C'est la vie.

Agulliver · Mar 31, 2020

+1 on filtering and on the clearing test.

The sulphur smell probably comes from ammonium sulphate (one of the ingredients in Kodafix) having separated. It's not unheard of with any thiosulphate based fixer. Just filter it and perform the clearing test every time you use it.

pentaxuser · Mar 31, 2020

kevs said:
You're paying the price for taking shortcuts. C'est la vie.

Is this a reference to the OP's method as described in his opening post? If so what shortcuts did he take?

Thanks

pentaxuser

bernard_L · Mar 31, 2020

Agulliver said:
+1 on filtering and on the clearing test.

+1
Also confirm that your bottle is 100% clean. Old fixer sometimes leaves a residue inside bottles that resists most chemical cleaners, but can be removed by shaking sand+water.
Once you have:

clean bottle
clean fixer
clears film strip in reasonable time

you should be OK. I can't tell you the clearing time for your fixer. For rapid fixer (ammonium thiosulfate) which Kodafix is now dilution 1+4, the test strip should clear in 30s with some agitation.

Rudeofus · Mar 31, 2020

kevs said:
Sometimes sulphur salts crystallise out of fixer solution but it shouldn't be much of a problem if you filter the solids out.

This may work for small amounts of sulfur residue trapped under the bottle cap, but not for fixer that sulfured out in quantity. Some sulfur will be present in form of tiny particles, which will go through any filter virtually unimpeded. I probably don't have to tell you, why sulfur in a silver rich gelatin layer may cause problems down the road.

kevs said:
I've never used Kodafix but most acid fixers are similar; I live in a hard water area and I never had a problem using tap water for mixing normal B&W chemistry. Most chemicals are buffered against minor tap water variations anyway.

I recommend you get neutral fixers from now on. Acidic fixers have low shelf life, regardless of what you do. It is virtually impossible now to even find film, which needs hardening, and for all "normal" films there is no benefit from acidic fixer. Consider Kodafix a legacy product now, and look for better alternatives.

Ed TLR · Mar 31, 2020

Hi Everyone, thanks again for the input; I do appreciate it. I'm all about efficiency, and I'm not going to risk any of my rolls to a potential problem, so I simply started a refund request with B&H for the defective product. I've ordered some Ilford fixer as a substitute. I don't understand why the powdered fixers are so difficult to come by these days; maybe its just demand that has caused "out of stock" and "backordered" notices with many vendors. Best wishes to all for safety and some extra photo time these days.

MattKing · Mar 31, 2020

Ed TLR said:
Hi Everyone, thanks again for the input; I do appreciate it. I'm all about efficiency, and I'm not going to risk any of my rolls to a potential problem, so I simply started a refund request with B&H for the defective product. I've ordered some Ilford fixer as a substitute. I don't understand why the powdered fixers are so difficult to come by these days; maybe its just demand that has caused "out of stock" and "backordered" notices with many vendors. Best wishes to all for safety and some extra photo time these days.

Powder means sodium thiosulfate based fixer, rather than the ammonium thiosulfate "Rapid" fixer, so anything based on powders is going to be relatively slow and really struggle with films like the T-Max films.

NB23 · Mar 31, 2020

MattKing said:
Powder means sodium thiosulfate based fixer, rather than the ammonium thiosulfate "Rapid" fixer, so anything based on powders is going to be relatively slow and really struggle with films like the T-Max films.

yes. Fixing fb papers for 15 minutes and films for 20 minutes... and you’re never sure when it’s really exhausted. Nightmarish.

cmacd123 · Mar 31, 2020

Ed TLR said:
I don't understand why the powdered fixers are so difficult to come by these days; maybe its just demand that has caused "out of stock" and "backordered" notices with many vendors.

powder fixer is generally based on PLAIN hypo, Sodium thiosulfate which does not do a super job on some of the so called "T-grain" or "delta Grain" films. the Rapid fixers using Ammonium thiosulfate almost have to be supplied in liquid form as the Ammonium Thiosulate does not dissolve well in powder form.

beside working with T-max and friends, on normal film the fix time with rapid fixer is 5 minutes vs ten for most powder fixers.

cmacd123 · Mar 31, 2020

Matt Got it out while I was checking my spelling !

kevs · Mar 31, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Is this a reference to the OP's method as described in his opening post? If so what shortcuts did he take?

Thanks

pentaxuser

No, that's not aimed at the OP; it's a reply to NB23's comment about twenty-year-old negs that are now deteriorating; the shortcut being a reliance on exhausted fixer. I've probably done the same thing myself at some stage and I'll expect at least some of my early negs will go the same way.

David Allen · Mar 31, 2020

If any fixer has a sulfur/sulphur smell then it is not worth using. It doesn't matter if it was a dodgy batch or there is residue in the bottle that you can filter particles out - do not risk your films because you are playing with fire! No filtering or any other treatment is worthwhile.

You will often hear that the 'go to' test for fixer is to do the 'clearing test'. This is a totally flawed old chestnut piece of advice. Sure it works (sort of) if you want to save money and do not care about the longevity of your negatives. However, you need to be aware that a knackered fixer bath can still deliver the 'clearing test' way longer than it is actually an effective fixer.

If you have worked in an environment where archival permanence is an absolute must (such as when I worked at the National Gallery in London) you will have learned that the only way of ensuring qualitative results is by regularly checking your fixer for its efficacy through testing how much residual chemicals are in the fixer bath. Back in the days of yore, Ilford published a series of standards for the efficacy of a working fixer bath (that each individual could choose between): amateur (with the highest levels of silver and contaminants in the fixer), Commercial, Professional, Museum (with the lowest levels of permitted silver and contaminants in the fixer).

We humans have learnt that a sulfur/sulphur smell is a warning of danger. Apart from toners that rely on sulphides (such as Sepia toner) you can take the presence of a sulfur/sulphur smell as a significant warning that your photographic chemicals are not worth using.

Bests,

David.

Please note that my I have a temporary new address for my website: http://dsallen.carpentier-galerie.de

Bests,

David.

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