What's the Best Method To Print 24"x32" RA4 Prints - List Included

[Qebs]

Hello everyone!

Hope you are all well.

I have a question on large dimension color negative paper printing.

I've searched a long time ago extensively and I started searching again today.


In terms of dimensions, I hope to use the RA4 paper to print at 24"x32" (poster size) in my future darkroom.


Here is a list of different solutions, but I was hoping people could
share their opinion on which way would be the ideal method:


DEVILLE Bobinoir roller system


Custom Large Trays


Two pool noodles and two people roll back and forth


Wall Paper tray - rolling back and forth in a tray (1 person)


Some sort of tabletop/roller processor

Additionally, I was wondering if anyone thinks
a DIY or home made JOBO tank style paper processor would be a cheap and effective method.

We had an RA4 machine back in school years ago but
I don't know what the right solution for me is.
I'm hoping I will be shooting and printing a lot but not sure
what sort of volume we are talking about.


Well, thanks for reading this!
I hope you all stay well.

Best Regards,
Kevin H.

 

[wiltw]

A roller processor like the Jobo ATL or CPP or CPA can handle prints of 20" x 24" in a 3063 drum. Longer/larger diameter drums cannot be accomodated.

There are CLAIMS on the web that the Jobo 4202 would do the job, but its spec is up to '40cm x 50cm' ...15.7" x 19.7"!

Folks have made their own tubes, from large diameter PVC pipes, but minimum length of pipe for purchase makes for considerable wasted pipe. And it would not be temperature buffered solution like in a Jobo processor. Tray processing would present the same challenge of temperature drop, with the large surface area of solution:air contact, unless you had a really big sink serving as a temperature bath. But without using Jobo fill, I would have concerns about filling/emptying in a manner that does not induce irregularities of processing with a home-made cylinder.

 

[nickandre]

Funny I noticed a 30 inch roll of Endura on eBay...

The PVC pipe method sounds easiest, although the light trap design might be difficult. IIRC PVC is slightly translucent so you'd probably want to hit it with some black spray paint. You'd need a 24+ inch inner diameter and a 32 inch length.

On the light trap you'd need something light blocking. It may be possible to use a diameter-reducing adapter and attach an existing Jobo cover to the pipe. Seems easier than trying to fashion my own but presumably a tight U-bend coated with flat black paint would suffice.

Easiest would be room temp but I imagine a bathtub would work just fine for temp control.

Actually come to think of it, if your max width is 24 inches just use a 20x24 tray and a pair of disposable gloves and shuffle back and forth in the chemistry. Involved but not undoable. I'm shooting 6x6 so I had pipe dreams of 30x30 prints

Then reliably trimming large sheaths of a roll in the dark seems interesting. There's gigantic roto-trim on craigslist for the princely sum of $800.

 

[gdavis]

In terms of dimensions, I hope to use the RA4 paper to print at 24"x32" (poster size) in my future darkroom.

That's ambitious. I just use a spare bathroom and bedroom, and have done up to 16"x24 with a Beseler drum. Could probably do 20x24 with a larger drum, but probably wouldn't go bigger than that with my current setup.

Here is a list of different solutions, but I was hoping people could
share their opinion on which way would be the ideal method:

There's no such thing as "best" or "ideal", only what works for you. Depends on things like:
budget
space
volume
your working preferences

DEVILLE Bobinoir roller system

Never heard of this before but found a video. I can't imaging trying to work something that cumbersome in total darkness.

Custom Large Trays

probably the simplest approach, but takes a lot of space, especially if you want them in a tempering bath.

Two pool noodles and two people roll back and forth

Can't even figure out how this would work.

Wall Paper tray - rolling back and forth in a tray (1 person)

I almost tried this but went with the drum instead. Almost as simple as the full trays, but much less space (and chemistry?). I'd be a little concerned about increased chance of kinks from the extra handling.

Some sort of tabletop/roller processor

Expensive, more maintenance, but if you've got the budget and the volume to make it worthwhile, and can find one, makes the processing very easy and quick.

Additionally, I was wondering if anyone thinks
a DIY or home made JOBO tank style paper processor would be a cheap and effective method.

As others have mentioned, making a light trap to be able to do daylight processing might be tricky. If you don't mind working in the dark, you can just use an open-ended tube with wallpaper trays to reduce the chances of kinking the paper.

I'm pretty happy with the drum, but I'm working with limited space, low volume and using chemicals one-shot. Others hate drums because it slows them down (cleaning and drying between prints) but it's doesn't really bother me. Don't know if you can get a 24x32 daylight drum.

The temperature isn't as big an issue as some make it out to be. RA4 doesn't need to be done at a very specific temp and time like C41, just need to be consistent and give it sufficient time for the temp (without getting to excessive). Some even do RA4 at room temperature with extended times. I heat my chemistry up but don't keep the drum in a bath during processing. At the recommended temp, the development time is short enough that the temperature doesn't drop much. Temp is less critical for blix. I just give it a little extra time.

 

[Qebs]

Hello wiltw!
Thanks for the reply!
I found a place that sells 10" diameter pvc pipe by the foot.
They even carry thinner walled 10" diameter pvc pipe for only $23 cad per foot!
The only problem is the end caps are listed at around $350 cad each.
I might ask a friend to 3d print the end caps for me.

Hey nickandre!
Thank you also for a reply!
Many thanks for your advice.
I've never owned a JOBO tank so I'm not sure how the light trap works
You might be right about just using a tray and rolling back and forth.
Oh yes, I will definitely need a rototrim like device.
I ready on the forums if I use 940 nm infrared leds I can use night vision goggles
to help with cutting

Greetings GDavis!
Thanks also for your detailed/lengthy long reply!
So, the pool noodle process one person rolling it up around the noodle
and when done they feed it to another person to roll up on the other pool noodle.
But you need two people so probably not the easiest method.
I'm considering the drum method because it will save space and chemistry (I think...).
I would love an RA4 automated machine, but not at the beginning.


I'm thinking of testing out 940 nm far infrared leds and night vision goggles
for the darkroom. And if I don't need end caps, that would be great, thanks for the suggestion.

So, do you think the 24x32" paper will cling to the inner walls of the 10" diameter pvc pipe (the inner diameter is a bit smaller, thus I'm not able to use an 8" diameter tube)?

And speed is not an issue, but if it helps I can use multiple tubes
(like if I discover I have to wash the print in a tray as the water can't get to the other side of the paper, the side hitting the inner surface of the tube).
Thanks for all the advice!

Be well everyone!

 

[MattKing]

With respect to fixing and washing - which can be done in the light - you can roll paper by hand in a trough that is sufficiently long. Those troughs will also permit using tubes that have no end caps, if you are prepared to work in the dark.
As colour paper is RC, the wash times are relatively short.

 

[Pitotshock]

I found a place that sells 10" diameter pvc pipe by the foot.
They even carry thinner walled 10" diameter pvc pipe for only $23 cad per foot!

Hey Qebs, where did you find that? Also from Canada here... I'm thinking along the same lines as you on some larger RA4 prints and I've been looking for a place that has large diameter pipe by the foot. I have drums up to 16x20, but need to make something for the bigger stuff.

I have both smooth wall drums like the cibachrome and patterson drums as well as the ribbed ones from Unicolor. Fibre base B&W paper sticks really well to the smooth wall drums, the RC paper (and color RC) doesn't lay perfectly flat, Usually the edges bridge a little off the wall. I get over this by using more volume in the drum so I don't end up with streaks on the edges of the sheets.

As for the night vision goggles, I have come quite accustomed to working in the total dark with the colour paper, film etc. and I even do almost all of my B&W in the dark too, definitely don't get fogging issues if you don't have a light on! Have no issues, moving around, cutting paper, loading drums, writing the exposure details on the back of the print etc in total darkness.

 

[Pitotshock]

Then reliably trimming large sheaths of a roll in the dark seems interesting. There's gigantic roto-trim on craigslist for the princely sum of $800.

Here is my new table to cut sheet from rolls in the darkroom by tactile feel only. Rolls up to 50" wide, although my German made trimmer was only $40CAD used..

 

[gdavis]

I've read that large sheets of fiber paper can sag in the tube when it gets saturated. RA4 paper, being RC, doesn't get saturated and tends to want to spring back to it's original shape. I haven't had a problem but my tube is only 5.5" in diameter and my paper is in cut sheets and want's to flatten out, so it stays in the tube without any issue.

Roll paper may want to curl back up (unless you reverse roll it) but if you curl it perpendicular to the original roll direction, I think it will hold up. If you're just using the tube open-ended in a tray or trough, it may not really matter, the paper can just roll up loosely inside the tube. Similar to rolling the paper in a trough by itself but you have the tube there for extra support.

I had no idea that end caps were so crazy expensive!

Oh, and mathematically, 7.7" is the absolute minimum tube diameter (7.7 * PI = 24.19), so maybe an 8" tube will work?

 

[gdavis]

Check out the posts from "archer" in this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/looking-for-a-30x40-drum-and-processor.69628/

 

[DREW WILEY]

Trays are the least realistic - you'd need a lot of chem at a time, with a big exposed surface area difficult to keep temp stable, and lots of unhealthy fumes involved. A big roller transport processor will do, but ones that big are seriously expensive and even costly to fill. You need to keep them in use with steady print quantities, and religiously replenish the solutions. Therefore, a basic processing drum is far more realistic and cost-effective for moderate quantities of prints. Paper will need to be obtained in rolls, with some means of precisely cutting the paper down in the dark. Fuji offers a number of RA4 products in 30-inch wide rolls suitable for optical enlarging. I personally have drum capacity for up to 30X40 inch prints, a 42-inch wide cutting table with precise squaring and sizing stops, and two big 8X10 color enlargers suited to prints that big.

You'll probably have to design your own drum using light-proof large diameter irrigation pipe. CPI did at one time make the best semi-automated drum gear (wrongly identified as PCI in a previous link). But they've been out of business a long time, and I've snatched up just about everything that came up for sale afterwards, and modified it for my personal needs, mostly as duplicate equipment, just in case there's a hypothetical delay repairing something. But nothing has gone wrong so far. And no, sorry, none of this is for sale. I was doing RA4 processing with it this afternoon.

These Fuji RC papers lay flat, and won't sag in a drum. But you ideally need shallow ribs inside the drum, running its length, so that rinse solutions can get behind the print, and not just over the emulsion side. These are easy to obtain from plastics shops in acrylic as half-circular rods, and you can use multi-purpose plumbing pipe solvent to glue them to either ABS or PVC pipe. A standard cap for your designated pipe diameter can be modified to make an inexpensive light-proof fill and drain endcap; and an unmodified one serves for the other end. If you don't want to make a special roller device, simply roll the drum back and forth on a smooth surface. Far bigger RA4 prints have been successfully processed in that casual manner.

But don't get careless with the chemicals or their fumes; one can get sensitized to them. My roller device itself is mounted on a cart so I can take it outdoors under a shade in mild weather, to avoid nearly all the fumes. The chemistry is always used one-shot, just enough for a test strip or two, and then the main print itself. I never recycle or replenish any of it. A well designed drum requires very little actual chemistry, maybe just 10 fl oz or less for the print size you're interested in. But don't use too small a diameter tube or it will be hard to load in the dark. I process the test strips in ordinary 8X10 drums, which are readily available used.

Temp control? I want fully predictable results test strip & drum to full-sized, and print to print, even on different days. So I do use a controlled tempering bath for retaining the respective chemistry bottles. But the whole point when processing is to keep the temp stable INSIDE the drum itself too. A liberal quantity of water as a pre-temp pre-soak, prior to the developer, helps, as does a relatively thick drum wall as well as similar ambient air temperature. Thin PVC drain pipe is seldom light-proof anyway.

 

[nickandre]

Which night vision goggles are you using?

back in 2010 I would just fumble in the dark. It was a party

Hello wiltw!
Thanks for the reply!
I found a place that sells 10" diameter pvc pipe by the foot.
They even carry thinner walled 10" diameter pvc pipe for only $23 cad per foot!
The only problem is the end caps are listed at around $350 cad each.
I might ask a friend to 3d print the end caps for me.

Hey nickandre!
Thank you also for a reply!
Many thanks for your advice.
I've never owned a JOBO tank so I'm not sure how the light trap works
You might be right about just using a tray and rolling back and forth.
Oh yes, I will definitely need a rototrim like device.
I ready on the forums if I use 940 nm infrared leds I can use night vision goggles
to help with cutting

Greetings GDavis!
Thanks also for your detailed/lengthy long reply!
So, the pool noodle process one person rolling it up around the noodle
and when done they feed it to another person to roll up on the other pool noodle.
But you need two people so probably not the easiest method.
I'm considering the drum method because it will save space and chemistry (I think...).
I would love an RA4 automated machine, but not at the beginning.


I'm thinking of testing out 940 nm far infrared leds and night vision goggles
for the darkroom. And if I don't need end caps, that would be great, thanks for the suggestion.

So, do you think the 24x32" paper will cling to the inner walls of the 10" diameter pvc pipe (the inner diameter is a bit smaller, thus I'm not able to use an 8" diameter tube)?

And speed is not an issue, but if it helps I can use multiple tubes
(like if I discover I have to wash the print in a tray as the water can't get to the other side of the paper, the side hitting the inner surface of the tube).
Thanks for all the advice!

Be well everyone!

 

[Wayne]

I'd worry more about kinking in trays than anything else. This is a job for drums.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I made prints this large in college using a HOPE processor. Not going back to that. Once you got above 20x24 it's a real PITA. Dodging and burning with dichroic filters, just keeping the paper flat....ugh. If you need to make a print that large i'd either have someone do it with lasers or a pigment printer. I shoot 8x10 and think a 16x20 is a lovely size for a darkroom print.

 

[nickandre]

I found this "ghost hunting" camera that ships with an external illuminator. It can record as well for my illustrious youtube channel.

It ships with an 850nm illuminator which produces some visible light. I would guess that's acceptable for paper due to the speed. Rumor is that you can sometimes get a 940 nm illuminator instead of the 850 which has less visible light emission. I sent them an email to ask if the sensor has sensitivity in that range.

If you then combine it with a phone and a cheap VR headset I think you can get (perhaps slightly delayed) real time footage to your eyeballs.

I made prints this large in college using a HOPE processor. Not going back to that. Once you got above 20x24 it's a real PITA. Dodging and burning with dichroic filters, just keeping the paper flat....ugh. If you need to make a print that large i'd either have someone do it with lasers or a pigment printer. I shoot 8x10 and think a 16x20 is a lovely size for a darkroom print.

What's the market rate for an 8x10 enlarger? /where in Maine are you?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Market rate is determined by luck. I turned down over 20 pro 8X10 enlargers for free from a major retiring lab (actually, three labs with the same owner) - some Omega F's, but mostly serious Durst. I did take one well equipped L184 with colorhead because it's a simple enough device for me to personally refurbish, rewire, and easily maintain. The original dichroic filters were in superb condition and just needed a careful cleaning. I'm using it again today. But it took six men to haul it out of an industrial storage basement, load onto the truck, and get it into my own lab. All those other enlargers went to the dump or scrap metal yard, except for one fancy-schmancy rig he's asking 75K for. He wouldn't give them to anyone else, but is in fact a very busy guy juggling a multiple income business mini-empire, and can't bother with salvage headaches. My biggest enlarger dwarfs the Durst, but was custom built in place by myself.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I found this "ghost hunting" camera that ships with an external illuminator. It can record as well for my illustrious youtube channel.

It ships with an 850nm illuminator which produces some visible light. I would guess that's acceptable for paper due to the speed. Rumor is that you can sometimes get a 940 nm illuminator instead of the 850 which has less visible light emission. I sent them an email to ask if the sensor has sensitivity in that range.

If you then combine it with a phone and a cheap VR headset I think you can get (perhaps slightly delayed) real time footage to your eyeballs.


What's the market rate for an 8x10 enlarger? /where in Maine are you?

Bath Maine. Paid $1500 for my Zone VI converted enlarger with a Kienzle VC head.

 

[Qebs]

Hey everyone,

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies and support, thank you!!


1. So does the drum have to be designed with these
inner end of paper stops? (thanks to gdavis for the link)

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/drum-002-1-1-jpg.17292/

from

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/looking-for-a-30x40-drum-and-processor.69628/

2. May I ask if anyone knows what the diameter is for the drums that are commercially made for 8x10 prints?

Edit: found some measurements, thanks!


-------------

Now to the replies


Hey MattKing!
Thanks for recommending the troughs.
I read it's hard to end caps off some JOBOS
and people use air pumps.
I'm only worried using a trough will need more chemistry.


----

Hello Pitotshock!

What size are you looking to print at?

I'm having a hard time visualizing the problem you solved
with using more chemistry, sorry


Oh, here is the contact info for the by the foot plastic pipe.
Remember, they have the normal wall thickness ones
and the thinner ones. The normal thick size pipe
is $62 cad per foot versus the thin walled pipe at $23 cad per foot.

Ontario Plastic Fabricators
Address: 10 Carlow Ct #1, Whitby, ON L1N 9T7

Phone: (416) 438-4317

If you end up printing big before I setup my darkroom, maybe you could share with me what you learned and setup as your workflow hahha

Thanks for sharing your cutting workflow.
I will definitely need to come up with something.


----

Hey gdavis!

Thanks for sharing some of what you've learned.

When I get 24" wide paper, will the emulsion be on the outside
or inside? That will help me know if I can reverse roll.

I know the caps are wildly expensive.
I found a cheaper place at $118 CAD.
But homedepot in America has them at 70 something USD.

Oh yes, pi is useful for sure.
The only problem was I had to account for smaller diameter
due to wall thickness. If you do that with a 24x32" paper
you get overlap at the ends.


Thanks for the link!
This gives me ideas, questions and hope!

Thanks!

----


Hey Drew Wiley!

Thanks so much for the advice!

Okay, I think people are all agreeing a DIY drum is the way to go.
Awesome! Some photo printing place told me 24x32" would be too big for
a drum.

Are these the rods you were talking about?:

https://www.amazon.com/Acrylic-Extruded-Half-Round-Rod-Nominal/dp/B00EZWFKNQ


Oh, I will try to find someone to help build a motorized roller
that rolls back and forth for sure!


Thank you for the warning! Very kind and caring of you.
I'm hoping to design my darkroom with really good venting
and I'm considering using powered air supply painters respirators
(a air compressor pumps fresh air through tubes to a mask).
I just have to find one mask that will still accommodate night vision
googles, as I don't know how to build the light trip for the drum
just yet.

Wow, 10 fluid ounces? That's so minimal, that's amazing!
Thank you for sharing that number!
I'll still have money to buy food! hahha

----

Hey nickandre!
Thanks for the question


I asked people at SuperSense (instant film maker)
what they use in their darkrooms and they said
the employees liked this cheaper night vision goggles more than the expensive ones.


https://www.bresser.de/en/Sport-Opt...NightVision-Binocular-1x-with-head-mount.html

I researched to be safe, you want to use 940 nm LEDs
and don't point them at your negative paper.

Cheers


----

Thanks for the comment Wayne!

----

Hey NortheastPhotographic!

Thanks for your advice!
I'm determined to do this haha.
But thanks so much for advice!


----

Thanks again everyone!
I really appreciate your sharing of time and knowledge!

Cheers!
Kevin H.

 

[wiltw]

Hey everyone,

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies and support.
So does the drum have to be designed with these
inner end of paper stops? (thanks to gdavis for the link)

I have found the internal ribs found in Jobo tanks to be very useful in positioning the print inside the tank, and in preventing one end of the print from overlapping the other end, and preventing solution from fully covering the print!
And in the 16x20" tank, two ribs also permitted me to process four 8x10 prints at the same time.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That is the type of rod material involved, but at 3/4" dia. it's way too big - you want only the 1/4 inch or preferably 1/8 inch diameter variety. You also need a fine toothed saw for it, like a jeweler's saw or miniature Dremel mitre box and hand saw. If you try to make your own roller device, you want a speed-controlled gearmotor distinctly more powerful than the ones in Jobo rigs, but also capable of lower RPMs if needed. Grainger is an excellent source for these. All exposed components should be 300-grade stainless steel. Suitable shafts and rollers can be obtained from McMaster-Carr. When you get to that point, start asking more questions. It's a bit too involved a topic for today. First you want to make sure you have a workable drum. Just take it a step at a time and try to have fun even if you make a mistake or two along the way. You'll get there.

 

[Qebs]

Hey wiltw,
Thanks for your reply~

May I ask if the internal ribs are the ones under the paper or situated where the ends of the paper are.
I'm a little confused. Thanks

~~~

Hello Drew Wiley,
Thanks for your reply!

I found someone that makes the motorized rolling devices.
My question would be, how many revolutions per second or minute do you think a 10 inch diameter drug processor should spin at?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And some more general questions:

1. What would be the rough dimensions of a 8x10 processor?
I found 8 inch by 4 inch diameter.

2. How much fluids/chemistry does one need in an 8x10 processor?


3. And can you wash the print while it's still in the drum processor or do you need to take it out and wash in something
like a tray?


Thanks so much everyone!
Take care

 

[DREW WILEY]

My roller device is adjustable from about 6 to 30 RPM. That range is important for certain processes, but RA4 is not very fussy in that respect, and seems best near the higher speed. A speed control would be optional, but it would be important to specify up front because a different kind of motor might be required. You can use just any cheapo speed control. What is a lot more important is that you have a serious gearmotor having reduction gears suited to the heavier torque load of a bigger drum holding more solution. Any tiny relatively high RPM motor like Jobo processors use, for example, would be way under-built.

My own 8X10 drums, which is a paper size convenient as a "test strip", need only one fluid oz. of RA4 chem per individual print that size. But 1-1/2 to 2 oz would be more common. And since these are only test strips, I use smooth--walled drums (no ribs) that allow for less solution.

I wash all the larger "keeper" prints in the drum itself. The ribs allow water to get behind. I wash much better than commercial processors - about 5 changes of water for about 2 min each (and much more volume of water than the previous chem itself). Then when I remove the print in the darkroom sink, I give it a final rinse with a hose before transferring it to the squeegee board. But I do have very large wash trays with tray siphon if I wanted to go that way; it's just easier to do in the drum itself.

 

[bardamu]

I found someone that makes the motorized rolling devices.

Can you maybe share a link and pricing for such motor roller? thanks

 

[Qebs]

~~~
Hey Drew Wiley,

Thanks for the advice!
I'm contacted the maker and they are testing with more weight/mass and will get back to me.

Thanks for the number on fluid oz amounts!

Thanks for sharing also the washing technique!

~~~
Hey Bardamu,

Check this link out - they are sold out, but they are making a new design.
Tell them I sent you (Kevin H.)

https://www.bounetphoto.com/bounet-shop/processor
Good luck!
~~~


Hey wiltw - sorry, to clarify, I'm confused buy conflated the ribs under the print and the ribs at the end of the paper.

These are do different parts of a drum processor?

Do I really need the end stop ribs?

Thanks so much!
Have a great weekend

 

[Qebs]

Hey,

I didn't want to make a new thread but I'm buying parts for an 8x10 processor.

1. If I was making a single sheet processor form 5 or 6" diameter tube, how long should the tube be.
I'm thinking you want some space inside on the ends.
So would 10" long tube be enough?

2. If I were making a two 8x10" print processor, what dimensions do you think would be best?


Thank so much!
Have a great weekend

Cheers,
Kevin H.