What's happening to Forte

Jim Chinn said:

I inquired in an earlier post about buying bulk film in rolls. i have access to a facility with a large subzero freezer and am begining to look at the real possibility of buying some bulk film, building a temporary "clean room" and cutting a packaging the roll(s) to insure I have a lifetime supply of ULF film.

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There will be ULF sheet film in multiple emulsions available for a long time.

Freezing jumbo rolls is likely to ruin the film. Handling a 1 meter by 600 meter roll is not something easy to do in the dark either. However, if you would like to buy a jumbo roll contact us.

bwfans said:

Let me hand in my homework:

0) they are running out of supplies so stopped the production.
1) they cannot make more papers/films without cash to buy the raw materials and need new financing.
2) they are not interested in getting more orders through attending the show. (They may have enough orders on hand but no raw material to fulfill the orders; or they need those marketing people to knock on the door of big banks. )
3) they are stepping into the same shoe as Ilford.
4) it is time to a) stock up Forte; b) try alternative process; c) play with digital

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It is time to sit back, buy the film you need for today and shoot that film. Hoarding of film is truely a waste of time and money. There will be plenty of film available in the future. Maybe not what is available today but there will be choices. I advised you of this when you told everyone to stock up on Ilford and I advise this now as a dealer in Forte films and papers.

jandc said:

Our Classic papers are Forte. The Museum paper is the same as Fortezzo.

Grades 2,3 and 4.

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Thank you very much, John (it is John, right?)

I will place an order for polywarmtone is a few days, when I get my paycheck and pay off a few things...

One day I'll try out graded papers, one day. I just have to finish off a current project, which will probably do better on VC.

Thank you for your patience with our questions, and your willingness to help.

All the best,

André R. de Avillez

jandc said:

It is time to sit back, buy the film you need for today and shoot that film. Hoarding of film is truely a waste of time and money. There will be plenty of film available in the future. Maybe not what is available today but there will be choices. I advised you of this when you told everyone to stock up on Ilford and I advise this now as a dealer in Forte films and papers.

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I agree with John in that hoarding film is a waste of time and money and in the long run would probably accelerate the disappearance of film. There must be a continuing market for the material otherwise who will make the film? If we all stock up now for the next twenty years the market is pretty much dead.

My advice would be to continue to buy film fresh from the people who are still willing to make and distribute it. I would certainly encourage supporting JandC because they are providing good products at attractive prices.

Eventually all film may disappear, but then all temporal things have their space and time. One of the great poets of medieval Spanish literature, Jorge Manrique, in an elegy on the death of his father, wrote, "Querer hombre vivir cuando Dios quiera que muera es locura," that is, It is madness for man to want to live when God wants him to do die. Dylan Thomas saw it differently, but then that is another story.

Sandy

I don't know if this is considered stocking of film or not but I always try to have about
40-50 rolls on hand.If I use 4-7 rolls per month I'm always making a purchase every month or two depending on my usage.i prefer to have more than I need on hand in case there is a slight disruption in supply and has nothing to do with fears of film being discontinued.Of course if something new comes out that I wish to try I usually buy a few rolls and If I like it enough I buy more till I'm confident with it's character,then purchase as needed.Just my 2cents-no I don't have any change.

I would cut the film and pkg prior to freezing, and hopefully could buy a smaller lot then 600 meters. But this would be a last resort. i agree that hoarding of film does no good for the long run of film, but if we get to the point of one manufacturer and that gets somewhat "iffy" I will figure out someway to have film available to me.

Since it sounds like Michael Smith may be taking the plunge into making digital negatives, maybe he will start to unload some of that freezer full of Super XX onto the market. That could pay for a lot of printers, and ink.

But my plan for now is to build cameras for who ever wants to buy one, buy film. Just in case however, the cameras are designed to accept glass plate holders with the same back as cut film holders.

I'm thinking of trying some new papers since I've used only Ilford for the past couple of years. I think I'll give Forte, Bergger and Oriental warm tone papers a try. I'll keep going to any available alternatives as long as they exist. If they don't exist, screw it--I'll take up knitting or something.

Jim Chinn said:

Since it sounds like Michael Smith may be taking the plunge into making digital negatives, maybe he will start to unload some of that freezer full of Super XX onto the market. That could pay for a lot of printers, and ink.

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You may have misunderstood what I wrote, or I explained it poorly. I don't think Michael has any personal interest in making digital negatives, but he is interested in learning of the potential of digital negatives for printing with AZO. In fact, we plan to have a chapter on making digital negatives for printing with AZO and the alternative processes in our book, hopefully by the man himself, Mark Nelson.

BTW, I recently tested some of the Super-XX film from Michael's cache. Although more than ten years old at this time it is still very good film, with a B+F of about log .30, and outstanding potential for expansion and contraction development. I think he made a wise decision to buy up the remaining stock because when you look at all of the variables, i.e. his printing process, type of development, etc., and evaluate the Super-XX curves, it is very clear that Super-XX fills his needs almost perfectly. Just shows you that great artists have outstanding control and understanding of their materials.

Sandy

I'm thinking of trying some new papers since I've used only Ilford for the past couple of years. I think I'll give Forte, Bergger and Oriental warm tone papers a try.

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If you're looking for a great warm toned paper... I just did a test using 6 different papers...

The Bergger VC on ivory base is beautiful untoned... A lovely tone developed in dektol... Like a slight warm olive.

My favourites were Agfa MCC111 and MCC118 developed in dektol and toned in Kodak Brown toner! A PERFECT warm brown in my opinion!

joe

Actually one has to ask did Forte need to be a Photokina.

Fotoimpex and J&C are their main distributors now in the largest markets, Europe and the US. I know Fotoimpex were at Photokina, I'd had been due to visit the show for work.

Surprisingly Photokina is not now seen as being so important and the US manufacturer we act for at work didn't attend either. Instead they had meetings in Europe two weeks before which were far more fruitfull.

Meanwhile I've just placed a largish order for Forte paper

Ian

jandc said:

Our Classic papers are Forte. The Museum paper is the same as Fortezzo.

Grades 2,3 and 4.

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Thanks so much for this information, John (all of it -- but particularly about the Classic/Fortezzo thing). Looks like I can now get all the film AND paper I need from you.

I love Fortezzo, and I love supporting "little guys" who do what they do out of passion and conviction -- and you do it very well.

Need I say "Long live J&C?"

Aggie said:

Get a grip. Maybe they approcached the bank becasue they needed more money to expand?

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So they stop attending the photokina because of their future expanding plan .

I admire your positive thinking.

sanking said:

In any event it appears obvious that we are in the midst of a sea change in terms of the availability of traditional materials and it seems almost inevitable that our choices of traditional films and papers will be more and more limited with each passing year. The market appears to be making some huge adjustments and I don't think we can continue to just blame the CEO for making bad decisions. Photography as we all know it may simply be disappearing before our eyes.

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Very true.

bwfans said:

So they stop attending the photokina because of their future expanding plan .

I admire your positive thinking.

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If you quote me put all the quote in. I did not say it was exactly that, it could be that as much as they are gone. WHO KNOWS. I do know that out of the 33 posts you have made here, 31 of them have been saying all film is going really fast, and no more supplies will be avialable soon. I would like to quote my grandmother who lived to be 97. Auf fa sodon (danish spelling is wrong). No matter how many of the smaller players like J&C tell us the straight story, you are ranting on about everyone should get a freezer and empty shelves NOW. As has been mentioned this is short sighted and will really bring about the death of film if everyone has a few years supply in their freezers. I do not subscribe to the chicken little theory of economics. Pete can cry wolf all he wants, but I would rather support those who are really moving the market for us. People like J&C!

"As has been mentioned this is short sighted and will really bring about the death of film if everyone has a few years supply in their freezers."

Not necessarily, Aggie. I bought a 5 year supply of Ilford film, but that doesn't mean I won't buy more to replace what I use so long as it's available. I'll just rotate the stuff.

I don't see the downside to having a cushion -- either for me, or the manufacturer.

If I take Sandy's advice I guess I'll just go out and spend 20.000.00 on digital eguipment to get started,and in about 11/2 to 2 years when my great systum is obsolete and no longer compatible with the new and improved systum I get to do it all over agein. sounds like a good plan.

Louis Nargi said:

If I take Sandy's advice I guess I'll just go out and spend 20.000.00 on digital eguipment to get started,and in about 11/2 to 2 years when my great systum is obsolete and no longer compatible with the new and improved systum I get to do it all over agein. sounds like a good plan.

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What advice is that? I don't recall advising anyone to go out and buy digital equipment. I have simply described what I consider to be reality. The market for film and papers is in free fall and the choices available for traditional work are rapidly being reduced. How you choose to deal with this situation is entirely up to you. Apart from a couple of scanners which I use to scan negatives on filmk I personally have very little invested in digital equipment and don't plan to spend any more for some time to come.

Your message reminds me that regardless of what one actually writes someone will always read into it whatever they like.

Sandy

sanking said:

Your message reminds me that regardless of what one actually writes someone will always read into it whatever they like.

Sandy

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Excellent point.

sanking said:

. I think he made a wise decision to buy up the remaining stock because ......

Sandy

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Sounds like that's the phrase that caused the misunderstanding. It's easy to read differently than intended because I think many of us wonder if squirreling away a significant amount of material might be our only certain hedge against having no material at all and look for direction from the example of others. To wit (only some years ago), Mark Citret bought the remaining stock of the Kodak paper he liked so much from which he has continued to be able to make his 'vellum' prints ever since. Perhaps some are on a hair trigger to find a way to lessen the uncertainty of traditional material's availability in this tumultous era of digitization.

Aggie,

After the Photokina I see a fair future for us.

Sure, film was definitely a side topic at the large brand halls - Kodak had a tiny shelf with films and developers, papers etc, Fuji showed new Portrait films (declaring war to Kodak) and I didn´t see a single box of film at Agfa.

But I had many talks with many people who knew their business.

It isn´t like there is no way to produce small batches of photographic films - there are small coating assemblies available which are usually used for testing procedures... 30cm wide instead of 1m or more.

In a worst case scenario these could be used for standard production (some are already in for special jobs), the only problem would be the KnowHow and the staff.

But once they are laid off at the companies... who cares who they work for?

Re Forte - they are in financial trouble again, two german sellers talked about it in public - one is Herr Loeffler of phototec.de, the other is Mirko Boedecker of fotoimpex.de. The two don´t agree with each other in terms of future prospects for Forte..

To coat a batch of paper you need the order and the money to finance the coating - that´s some ten thousand Euros per run, depending on the size of the batch and the size of the machine.

Someone recently said that Forte depended on payments in advance, before the material was actually produced. Forte seems to have one big problem - they buy the raw material in the West, paper base (there isn´t much left but Schoeller in Osnabrueck and Muellersohn), sensitizing materials, whatever. They pay big money for it, the same or probably more Ilford or Agfa pay for that stuff. But their prices are lower.

When I walked by the Forte booth I saw nothing, I didn´t actually noticed anything there until I was some dozen meters away - there wasn´t much on display, so I didn´t turn around.

The nonexistant Forte booth wasn´t with Fotoimpex, it was with B.I.G., the Brenner Import-Gesellschaft, another large warehouse and importer. Different hall, different place. BIG sells Forte by the Forte brand, not with a private label as ´impex does.

Foma was directly next to Fotoimpex, I had a good talk with the Czechs and learned a bit more about the new old Adox stuff at the other one. Too bad those T-Shirts weren´t for the people (Grey, with the "adding the grey to black&white" slogan on it). The looked fine.

Well.... I put my cards on Foma and Agfa. I believe they will make it - I am not sure how much of this is believe or wishful thinking... both need a 180° turn in terms of customer relations, of information, they need to start caring of who is selling their products and how, they need to approach the pro to get a few "high standing examples" for the ordinary customer. And they don´t need to send interested sellers away, thats a very bad habit.

Both have products that are excellent, some are the best available - Agfas chemistry for bw, for E6, RA4 is excellent, consistent, easy to handle and quite environment friendly (in comparison). They have a good name in that sector.... the Multicontrast papers are a dream for many who work with them... same with Foma - cheap and decent stuff, some quite innovatice (R100 reversal film, T200).

Aggie said:

If you quote me put all the quote in. I did not say it was exactly that, it could be that as much as they are gone. WHO KNOWS. I do know that out of the 33 posts you have made here, 31 of them have been saying all film is going really fast, and no more supplies will be avialable soon. I would like to quote my grandmother who lived to be 97. Auf fa sodon (danish spelling is wrong). No matter how many of the smaller players like J&C tell us the straight story, you are ranting on about everyone should get a freezer and empty shelves NOW. As has been mentioned this is short sighted and will really bring about the death of film if everyone has a few years supply in their freezers. I do not subscribe to the chicken little theory of economics. Pete can cry wolf all he wants, but I would rather support those who are really moving the market for us. People like J&C!

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There are three major points in my posts: the trends, about the stocking up the films from those that seems currently have financial problems, and the current status of Forte. I don't think I need to post any more after reading some later posts.

Sandy pointed out the megatrend here and I agree with him on this (but not on stocking up the film):

"... I have simply described what I consider to be reality. The market for film and papers is in free fall and the choices available for traditional work are rapidly being reduced. How you choose to deal with this situation is entirely up to you....".

I like his wording: "How you choose to deal with this situation is entirely up to you". (Sandy has a good writing style, IMO)

Will stocking up now cause any trouble for Forte or Ilford?

"Not necessarily, Aggie. I bought a 5 year supply of Ilford film, but that doesn't mean I won't buy more to replace what I use so long as it's available. I'll just rotate the stuff.

I don't see the downside to having a cushion -- either for me, or the manufacturer." (Poco)

One good example of stocking up (Michael Smith):

"BTW, I recently tested some of the Super-XX film from Michael's cache. Although more than ten years old at this time it is still very good film, with a B+F of about log .30, and outstanding potential for expansion and contraction development. I think he made a wise decision to buy up the remaining stock because when you look at all of the variables, i.e. his printing process, type of development, etc., and evaluate the Super-XX curves, it is very clear that Super-XX fills his needs almost perfectly. Just shows you that great artists have outstanding control and understanding of their materials." (Sandy)

Another good example of stocking up (Mark Citret):

"Sounds like that's the phrase that caused the misunderstanding. It's easy to read differently than intended because I think many of us wonder if squirreling away a significant amount of material might be our only certain hedge against having no material at all and look for direction from the example of others. To wit (only some years ago), Mark Citret bought the remaining stock of the Kodak paper he liked so much from which he has continued to be able to make his 'vellum' prints ever since. Perhaps some are on a hair trigger to find a way to lessen the uncertainty of traditional material's availability in this tumultous era of digitization." (jovo)

The current status about Forte:

"Re Forte - they are in financial trouble again, two german sellers talked about it in public - one is Herr Loeffler of phototec.de, the other is Mirko Boedecker of fotoimpex.de. The two don´t agree with each other in terms of future prospects for Forte..

To coat a batch of paper you need the order and the money to finance the coating - that´s some ten thousand Euros per run, depending on the size of the batch and the size of the machine.

Someone recently said that Forte depended on payments in advance, before the material was actually produced. Forte seems to have one big problem - they buy the raw material in the West, paper base (there isn´t much left but Schoeller in Osnabrueck and Muellersohn), sensitizing materials, whatever. They pay big money for it, the same or probably more Ilford or Agfa pay for that stuff. But their prices are lower.

When I walked by the Forte booth I saw nothing, I didn´t actually noticed anything there until I was some dozen meters away - there wasn´t much on display, so I didn´t turn around.". (rjr)

Last paragraph in Aggie's post is kind of funny:

"I do not subscribe to the chicken little theory of economics. Pete can cry wolf all he wants, but I would rather support those who are really moving the market for us. People like J&C!"

Are you really in a serious discussion or just picking a line to stand for? If the latter I have to admire your braveness as a soldier for J&C. I really cannot find any solid points in your posts here. Obviously as a soldier, you are not ready yet.

By the way, in this post I did not response to J&C. There is no need to stand at two sides every time, fight for things not important and not interesting .

bwfans, if you do what a battle so be it. First until you stated in your last post at no time was there any reference to who said what and what the troubles were at forte. What you overheard was a bit of gossip. Do they have first hand knowledge of the company? did they talk direct to forte? Or was it all speculation and gossip? FACTS are what is reality. GOSSIP is the small talk where people wonder and try to think of why without fully knowing. As for being a soldier? Hell no! If I support someone it is because I have dealt direct with them. John of J&C talked direct to forte. I tend to believe first hand information based on real facts over gossip.

The stock piling of those cited are instances of people using specific items. When the items were discontinued, they bought the remain stocks then. Until that time they did not stock pile up.

As to the shrinking availability, seems as one door closes, there is another one stepping in to fill the gap. We may not in the future have all the old ones, but we will have new ones. The market is in flux. Even the digital camera companies are hurting now that cell phones have cameras in them. In a few years it will have all settled down.

Agfa is not really gone just purchased by some people who will be continuing the film division on their own. Was that not your first, they are gone post? Was that not your first rant about how we need to stock up on apx100 now before it is all gone? It isn't gone. Ilford is in trouble, but it is not gone. They are talking to a buyer of all places in the USA. Efke is not gone. Forte will survive.

Aggie said:

bwfans, if you do what a battle so be it. First until you stated in your last post at no time was there any reference to who said what and what the troubles were at forte. What you overheard was a bit of gossip. Do they have first hand knowledge of the company? did they talk direct to forte? Or was it all speculation and gossip? FACTS are what is reality. GOSSIP is the small talk where people wonder and try to think of why without fully knowing. As for being a soldier? Hell no! If I support someone it is because I have dealt direct with them. John of J&C talked direct to forte. I tend to believe first hand information based on real facts over gossip.

The stock piling of those cited are instances of people using specific items. When the items were discontinued, they bought the remain stocks then. Until that time they did not stock pile up.

As to the shrinking availability, seems as one door closes, there is another one stepping in to fill the gap. We may not in the future have all the old ones, but we will have new ones. The market is in flux. Even the digital camera companies are hurting now that cell phones have cameras in them. In a few years it will have all settled down.

Agfa is not really gone just purchased by some people who will be continuing the film division on their own. Was that not your first, they are gone post? Was that not your first rant about how we need to stock up on apx100 now before it is all gone? It isn't gone. Ilford is in trouble, but it is not gone. They are talking to a buyer of all places in the USA. Efke is not gone. Forte will survive.

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Aggie,

You still don't have a strong case. I don't need to add more to mine.

Have a great day.

As I suspected a gossip mongerer.

mrcallow said:

Excellent point.

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Hi,

Thanks. And based on continuation I rest my case.

Sandy