What's gone wrong?

pentaxuser · Apr 26, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
Ah, have already phoned them. Ian was very helpful in suggesting what could be the the problem but told me they don't really deal with my camera model.

As a fellow Pentax MF user( N not Nii in my case) it would be useful to know who will deal with analogue MF pentaxes, now that it seems that Newton and Ellis don't consider it a make they deal with. There has to be a Pentax service expert out there in the U.K. surely?.

Given that the fault would appear to be intermittent and connected to the shutter mechanism so possibly not requiring a replacement part I am surprised that Newton and Ellis are not prepared to have a look. I'd have thought that focal plane shutters' operation might have been common across several camera types but that's just a feeling which might be wrong. I really don't know enough about such matters.

pentaxuser

Fin · Apr 26, 2019

I've personally not used them, but I know a few analogue photography sellers on eBay (including Camley Photo) who use Camserve.

I did speak to them about a year ago with a faulty Bronica SQ-A body that I was having issues with and they said that they should be able to repair it. Since then, I found another one at a silly good price, so I might have a go with it myself at some point!

abruzzi · Apr 26, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
It depends which orientation the camera's in for each shot; for my first example it was in landscape, the second one in portrait.

When they state that they mean in normal orientation. If you look at the sharp line it is in almost the same place on each photo with respect to the physical body of the camera. I posted because most cameras with a rectangular frame and a cloth focal plane shutter have the shutter move across the long axis. My Pentax 67, my Nikkormat FTN. You see metal bladed shutters that move across the short dimension of the frame.

When I look at lines like you have it could be because a flaw in the curtain allows a pinhole of light through, and the line on the image is caused by the travel of the shutter, but this isn’t that because the direction of travel of the shutter makes that impossible. When I’ve seen issues that are in the same orientation as the edge of the shutter, then have had ver soft and in distinct edges. The sharp edge to your flaw, if caused by the shutter, looks like it would have to be caused by one of the shutter curtains hitting a snag where it comes to a dead stop, long enough to create that hard line before continuing.

Paul Manuell · Apr 27, 2019

Fin said:
I've personally not used them, but I know a few analogue photography sellers on eBay (including Camley Photo) who use Camserve.

I did speak to them about a year ago with a faulty Bronica SQ-A body that I was having issues with and they said that they should be able to repair it. Since then, I found another one at a silly good price, so I might have a go with it myself at some point!

Brilliant, thank you, will give Camserve a ring, see what they say

Paul Manuell · Apr 27, 2019

pentaxuser said:
As a fellow Pentax MF user( N not Nii in my case) it would be useful to know who will deal with analogue MF pentaxes, now that it seems that Newton and Ellis don't consider it a make they deal with. There has to be a Pentax service expert out there in the U.K. surely?.

Given that the fault would appear to be intermittent and connected to the shutter mechanism so possibly not requiring a replacement part I am surprised that Newton and Ellis are not prepared to have a look. I'd have thought that focal plane shutters' operation might have been common across several camera types but that's just a feeling which might be wrong. I really don't know enough about such matters.

pentaxuser

They did actually say they'd have a look but don't have spares for this model anymore if something needs replacing.

tezzasmall · Apr 27, 2019

Maybe before sending it off Paul, I have read many times on forums, that sometimes, when a camera hasn't been used for a while, the shutter plays up in many different ways. It is then suggested that the owner just sit and 'play' with the camera, repeatedly firing the shutter at various speeds. This often, but not always, solves the problem, of maybe a lack of use. Mostly seems to happen in older analogue cameras.

Let us know how you get on what ever you end up doing.

Terry S

Paul Manuell · Apr 27, 2019

tezzasmall said:
Maybe before sending it off Paul, I have read many times on forums, that sometimes, when a camera hasn't been used for a while, the shutter plays up in many different ways. It is then suggested that the owner just sit and 'play' with the camera, repeatedly firing the shutter at various speeds. This often, but not always, solves the problem, of maybe a lack of use. Mostly seems to happen in older analogue cameras.

Let us know how you get on what ever you end up doing.

Terry S

Thanks Terry. Yeah, I did do some dry firing of the shutter yesterday and today at various speeds, and with the lens and film back off, and everything seemed fine, couldn't see anything sticking or not working how I assumed it should work, though I admit I'm an untrained eye in that department.

dave olson · May 6, 2019

My 2 cents worth, I have a Pentax 6x4.5 N autofocus I have used for years. Purchased it new when they first came out and have never had a shutter problem. To try and judge a shutter problem you need to shoot a full roll of film. Get it developed and then on a light box with a loupe examine each frame closely. Look for consistency in the light of the exposure. If the problem is not consistent, try another roll film, film is cheap. Hassy can have a shutter problem, particularly at 1 sec, 1/2 and 1/4 speeds in the opening and closing of the curtain. In automatic Pentaxes it is all electroic, check your battery.

Paul Manuell · Jun 4, 2019

Bit of an update for anyone who's interested (not many I should imagine ). After phoning a few companies, including those already mentioned in this thread, and none of them showing any real enthusiasm in taking on the job due to lack of available spares, I've finally sent it off to one that sounded the most positive, though even they admitted it might not be repairable if parts are needed. The real downer, though, is they give a 4-6 week timescale for repair!!! Over a month without my beloved camera Withdrawal symptoms have already started.

Luckless · Jun 4, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
Over a month without my beloved camera Withdrawal symptoms have already started.

Any room in the budget to treat withdrawal symptoms with a new camera of some kind? Maybe an inexpensive and very bare-bones medium format folder? Something a bit different to work with than your main camera?

Paul Manuell · Jun 4, 2019

Luckless said:
Any room in the budget to treat withdrawal symptoms with a new camera of some kind? Maybe an inexpensive and very bare-bones medium format folder? Something a bit different to work with than your main camera?

A very good idea, and something I'd already considered, but I'm a bit of a stick in the mud I'm afraid and hate change. No, I'm gonna be patient, bide my time and wait for my Pentax to (hopefully) be repaired.

If it turns out they can't fix it, something I've been giving serious thought to is the fact that all medium format film cameras are obviously getting old now, and when inevitable problems occur it might be the case that repairs are more and more unlikely to be carried out, due to the lack of aforementioned spares. For that reason, and much as I adore working with medium format and especially my Pentax, and it would seriously pain me to give up both, I've been toying with the idea of going back to 35mm. The camera I'd go for would be a Nikon F5 as I used to own a Nikon before going medium format, so am familiar with how they work. Also, even though the F5 is still obviously a film camera, it's relatively a lot newer than any medium format camera, so repair shops would probably be more willing to work on it due to the spares availability. That's a worst case scenario though; obviously my ultimate hope is that my Pentax is repaired and lasts for MANY more years to come.

Paul Manuell · Jun 6, 2019

Ok, have found a sort of solution to keep me shooting in the interim - an old Cosina C1 that's been languishing in a kitchen cupboard for years. Has a 35-70mm lens with it that's a bit hazy, and a 16mm Sigma that's in surprisingly good condition. The batteries for the meter even still work! I bought a roll of Tri X 400 (never used it before) for it today, so looking forward to taking some shots over the next week or two. Will have to remember to NOT take the film out after 15 shots though

Paul Manuell · Jul 5, 2019

Update:
After about 5 weeks since posting my camera to them, I received an email today from the Real Camera Company saying their engineers had been unable to replicate the fault. Brilliant, so now not only am I going to have to pay for return postage and their bill, I'm stuck with the intermittent fault, never knowing when it's going to occur and not finding out if it HAS occurred until films are developed. And that's going to be with every film from now on

MattKing · Jul 5, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
Update:
After about 5 weeks since posting my camera to them, I received an email today from the Real Camera Company saying their engineers had been unable to replicate the fault. Brilliant, so now not only am I going to have to pay for return postage and their bill, I'm stuck with the intermittent fault, never knowing when it's going to occur and not finding out if it HAS occurred until films are developed. And that's going to be with every film from now on

That is assuming of course that the problem originated in the camera, and not some outside of the camera cause.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 5, 2019

pentaxuser said:
As it is only two frames can we take it that the difference shows up with either the naked eye or a loupe on the neg of the two balls i.e. it is not a scanning artefact?

pentaxuser

shutter bounce?

Paul Manuell · Jul 5, 2019

MattKing said:
That is assuming of course that the problem originated in the camera, and not some outside of the camera cause.

Such as...?

MattKing · Jul 5, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
Such as...?

Aliens!
Or something related to film shipping, storage or handling that is unlikely to happen again.

Paul Manuell · Jul 5, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
shutter bounce?

Don't know what shutter bounce is, but whatever caused it, the repairers never managed to replicate it. Seeing as it's only happened to me on 4 frames in 7 whole films though, the likelihood of them replicating the problem was very unlikely.
Looks like I'm going to have to either live with it and accept that the odd frame may be ruined, or cut my losses and buy either another 645NII with all the risk of problems developing with that one too and not being able to be fixed, or go for a different system altogether, the most likely candidate being 35mm as they're relatively newer and more likely able to be repaired if problems arise. Will be gutted giving up the Pentax, though, it's perfect in every way for me.

Paul Manuell · Jul 5, 2019

MattKing said:
Aliens!
Or something related to film shipping, storage or handling that is unlikely to happen again.

No, if you've looked at the frames I posted at the start of this thread, you'll realise it's pretty obviously a shutter malfunction of some sort.

MattKing · Jul 5, 2019

And in fact I even suggested a problem with the shutter earlier in the thread .
So it comes down to aliens I guess.
I would keep using the camera unless and until I saw a repeat of the problem.
It might have been something as simple as a piece of debris that affected the shutter operation for a couple of frames, but then was dislodged and rendered harmless.

Paul Manuell · Jul 5, 2019

MattKing said:
And in fact I even suggested a problem with the shutter earlier in the thread .
So it comes down to aliens I guess.
I would keep using the camera unless and until I saw a repeat of the problem.
It might have been something as simple as a piece of debris that affected the shutter operation for a couple of frames, but then was dislodged and rendered harmless.

Well that piece of debris, if that's what it is/was, made its presence known on 4 frames over 7 films, so even if it has dislodged itself I'm never going to know until I have each film I now use with it developed. And even if it doesn't show up on one film, it still could on the next, or the next. The 4 frames it's happened on up till now were on 3 films, so 4 films totally unaffected. However, they weren't the last 4 films in a row, they were random ones out of the 7, so there's no specific pattern to predict when it'll next happen.

Dan Daniel · Jul 5, 2019

Sorry if this has been explored earlier, but- have you contacted Eric Hendrickson on the US?
https://pentaxs.com/
I know it's a long ship, but maybe if you simply sent him some sample files he might have an idea?

MattKing · Jul 5, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
Seeing as it's only happened to me on 4 frames in 7 whole films though

I must have missed something - when did it go from 2 frames on one roll to 4 frames in 7 rolls?
Over what period of time were the seven rolls exposed?
And does the line extend into the rebate, or is it just in the image area?

Paul Manuell · Jul 6, 2019

MattKing said:
I must have missed something - when did it go from 2 frames on one roll to 4 frames in 7 rolls?
Over what period of time were the seven rolls exposed?
And does the line extend into the rebate, or is it just in the image area?

Ok, the 2 frames on one roll were the 2 pictures posted in my original post. It also happened 2 other times since then on 2 different films, ie., one photo each on 2 different films. 7 is the number of films used and developed in total inclusive from that which contained the 2 photos in my original post. I've not shot any more films since then because that's when I decided to send my camera off. So in a nutshell, the fault occurred 4 times out of 105 frames and on 3 different films.The 7 rolls were exposed over a period of just over 2 months.

MattKing · Jul 6, 2019

MattKing said:
And does the line extend into the rebate, or is it just in the image area?

???

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