I was answering your post #101 and trying to illustrate the point I was trying to make about errors in posts here on some technical matters.
PE
PE
What's going on??
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And the "respected" member still fumes that he is right because he never let facts interfere with his thought processes and statements.
Alright. Here is the experiment.
Film was coated with a layer of indicator dye that was quite dense, and changed hue from base to acid. It was then overcoated with a thick gelatin layer to simulate film. It was hardened normally.
This film was then "developed" in a developer and then "stopped" in a stop bath all the while the color density being recorded by transmission. The rate of change gave 2 pieces of data. One was the rate of change of pH and the second was the final pH. The first piece of data also gave an indication of the rate of diffusion of Hydrogen ion through the coating. This was done for a number of chemicals, not just acid - base transitions.
It showed that the pH drop to 4.0 was very rapid when using D-76 and several other developers.
PE
Film was coated with a layer of indicator dye that was quite dense, and changed hue from base to acid. It was then overcoated with a thick gelatin layer to simulate film. It was hardened normally.
This film was then "developed" in a developer and then "stopped" in a stop bath all the while the color density being recorded by transmission. The rate of change gave 2 pieces of data. One was the rate of change of pH and the second was the final pH. The first piece of data also gave an indication of the rate of diffusion of Hydrogen ion through the coating. This was done for a number of chemicals, not just acid - base transitions.
It showed that the pH drop to 4.0 was very rapid when using D-76 and several other developers.
PE
PE, a discussion about using the scientific experiment will not impress the "respected" member. Some can never learn.
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he ron
obviously most everyone except for a chemist or emulsion scientist would post a wrong answer or WAG if that was
posted as a question, but peter's OP was about newbies not hard-core science.
and i would wonder what the point would be if someone posted that as an answer to
the "do i really need stop bath, can i use water instead" posts that spring up from a time to time. i mean how often is a newbie ( or anyone else for that matter )
coating his or her own film with indicator dye and over coating it with a thick layer of gelatin ..
it is an interesting fact though ...
maybe i am an optimist? but i think this website has more than 50% useful, truthful, info ... and as i stated
previously it would be a lot more "newbie friendly" if cranky and passive aggressive people who are tired of the same-dang-questions being asked
every week would just IGNORE those questions and move-on to more useful conundrums, like your post/experiment.
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I agree with this, John. That is how forums thrive and grow membership. If that's not one of the goals of this forum, then maybe it should be be reserved for experienced film users and no new registrations should be taken.
I'm sure that's not what Sean wants, though I suspect it would delight a tiny number of our crankiest members
This too.
Big changes and a degree of political turmoil in a few countries around the world.
As someone put it to me in a pm, maybe some folk express their discomfort about that sideways ...
Oh well, I won't digress anymore here.
PE
PE
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At the risk of incurring ire - I'm not gonna read 5 pgs of posts - one is sufficient.
No matter what your hobby or passion - it lives & dies w/ noobies. How we handle that is a measure of worth.
A couple mentioned versions of FAQs - which is a good idea. 'Getting started in xxx is also. It doesn't require a terse response to direct an inquiry there. With several unsuccessfull searches, I asked a dumb question on filter factors & Wikipedia had it. They turned up nothing on prior questions, so I stopped looking. 'Felt dumb for asking & apprciative to the kind person that directed me there.
But one way or another - we'll do this thing well or dwindle to lost memory.
No matter what your hobby or passion - it lives & dies w/ noobies. How we handle that is a measure of worth.
A couple mentioned versions of FAQs - which is a good idea. 'Getting started in xxx is also. It doesn't require a terse response to direct an inquiry there. With several unsuccessfull searches, I asked a dumb question on filter factors & Wikipedia had it. They turned up nothing on prior questions, so I stopped looking. 'Felt dumb for asking & apprciative to the kind person that directed me there.
But one way or another - we'll do this thing well or dwindle to lost memory.
Ire.
At the risk of incurring ire... I'll repeat myself.
Beginners ask beginners' questions.
Sometimes it takes awhile for them to ask the right question. Telling them to do a google search won't help if they don't know what to type into the search engine. There are many here whose first language is decidedly not English; it's a struggle for them to articulate unfamiliar concepts in a new language. Cut them some slack.
Everybody's got something; some weakness, some lack of understanding, some vulnerability. It's unfortunate that here, which should be a safe and nurturing place for photographers, there are some who target others' weaknesses - to make themselves seem larger by making others feel small.
Tom
Beginners ask beginners' questions.
Sometimes it takes awhile for them to ask the right question. Telling them to do a google search won't help if they don't know what to type into the search engine. There are many here whose first language is decidedly not English; it's a struggle for them to articulate unfamiliar concepts in a new language. Cut them some slack.
Everybody's got something; some weakness, some lack of understanding, some vulnerability. It's unfortunate that here, which should be a safe and nurturing place for photographers, there are some who target others' weaknesses - to make themselves seem larger by making others feel small.
Tom
Amen
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Is this the yearly navel gazing thread where people talk of their annoyance with other people?
If'n someone annoys you, just ignore it. If you don't want to answer other's "annoying" questions, then don't. Spend the energy on something positive.
I get annoyed that people get annoyed at annoying people. Someone is now annoyed at me.
My metric for posting here is "can I help this person in a meaningful way that hasn't already been suggested?" If I can, I post. Sometimes it is ignored, talked over, or taken issue with. None of those things affect my life so I tend to ignore it. If the thread is really way off I will just pm the OP to avoid the s**tstorm. No one likes being told they are wrong. That is what I try to do. Doesn't always work out that way.
If'n someone annoys you, just ignore it. If you don't want to answer other's "annoying" questions, then don't. Spend the energy on something positive.
I get annoyed that people get annoyed at annoying people. Someone is now annoyed at me.
My metric for posting here is "can I help this person in a meaningful way that hasn't already been suggested?" If I can, I post. Sometimes it is ignored, talked over, or taken issue with. None of those things affect my life so I tend to ignore it. If the thread is really way off I will just pm the OP to avoid the s**tstorm. No one likes being told they are wrong. That is what I try to do. Doesn't always work out that way.
MattKing
Moderator
A suggestion to do a search can actually be a helpful suggestion.
Particularly if you direct people to a particular portion of the forum. Or even better, suggest some search terms.
But like so much else, it depends on how the suggestion is made.
Particularly if you direct people to a particular portion of the forum. Or even better, suggest some search terms.
But like so much else, it depends on how the suggestion is made.
I said that a few posts back. You should have searched first
Joking aside, it's crazy to expect people new to a forum to read through ancient posts and FAQs or to search before each and every question (especially when the search engine provides such poor results).
The whole point in discussion forums is to discuss things. What kind of interaction do you get from an FAQ? Sometimes it's nice to actually chat to people. Well to some people anyway.
The Crankiest member around here tend to post the same old rubbish ad nauseam. Cranky and hypocritical I tell ya!
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I am curious who the offending members are. Maybe I just don't notice it (or don't care, see my previous post).
I think APUG is a great place. It isn't a popularity contest like some other sites and it isn't full of egomaniacs like some other sites. I would mention them but I don't think I am allowed. It strikes a nice balance. Overall I would say APUG is a very pleasant place to visit. The people here are helpful and knowledgeable and they tend to respect each other. And we have PE, which pretty much trumps everything else on the internet!
I think APUG is a great place. It isn't a popularity contest like some other sites and it isn't full of egomaniacs like some other sites. I would mention them but I don't think I am allowed. It strikes a nice balance. Overall I would say APUG is a very pleasant place to visit. The people here are helpful and knowledgeable and they tend to respect each other. And we have PE, which pretty much trumps everything else on the internet!
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As others have already expressed, I fail to understand why some APUGers get annoyed at questions that are posted (newbie or otherwise). Seemingly, it's easier to ignore a post that doesn't interest you than it is to post some barbed response along the lines of "this has been discussed x,xxx times already, just do a search." How does that serve APUG, which is presumably an interactive forum, not an online encyclopedia?
There are frequent posts by people asking about equipment failures (some broken spring, a malfunctioning advance lever, etc). I ignore these posts because I don't have anything to offer and am not particularly interested. But I'm not going to post something asking why they didn't search YouTube/Google or APUG archives before asking. That would seem petty and pointless.
Dale
There are frequent posts by people asking about equipment failures (some broken spring, a malfunctioning advance lever, etc). I ignore these posts because I don't have anything to offer and am not particularly interested. But I'm not going to post something asking why they didn't search YouTube/Google or APUG archives before asking. That would seem petty and pointless.
Dale
OP
OP
I just wish I had APUG when I was starting out!
Two very important paragraphs.
How many time have you had posts directed at you and also have PMs sent to you asking you to please look at the thread and answer it? I have hand literally thousands of requests. This is pretty hard to ignore.
And, regarding the second paragraph, I agree and stated the same POV in one of my earlier posts. I don't comment on areas outside of my area of expertise.
PE
Is this all about you, PE? Just curious from your responses.
But I understand your situation. Same thing happens to me on my day job. Advanced and challenging work is more fun and satisfying but a lot of folks are early in their learning so they ask an expert. If it's too much why not disallow PMs? I suggest this out of concern and understanding, not trying to be snarky or mean spirited.
But I understand your situation. Same thing happens to me on my day job. Advanced and challenging work is more fun and satisfying but a lot of folks are early in their learning so they ask an expert. If it's too much why not disallow PMs? I suggest this out of concern and understanding, not trying to be snarky or mean spirited.
Brian, this is not about me, but I can exemplify the problem, I think, by the posts I've made in this thread. I like to help people and I've been told that I am a good teacher. So, I try to help newbies here, and others of course. But, sometimes it is a case of helping someone by getting them to help themselves. And repeat questions, with bad answers don't help.
PE
PE
I don't get that.
PE
PE
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