Julie:
I think that Gerald's comments may have been misunderstood (at least a little bit).
I think that he is of the opinion that the structure and methods of interaction in sites like APUG is not the best choice for beginners who want to learn. And to a certain extent I agree with him. Discussion sites like this are better at dealing with discrete parcels of information than they are at helping build a concrete foundation of knowledge.
I'm more optimistic than I think he is about how much these fora can contribute to the beginner, but it is really difficult some times to impart the necessary context. Face to face interaction plus a good book are way better.
When you buy a computer, you don't get a book with it telling you all about using computers. Why? Because it is so involved, and common knowledge to so many, that you are expected to learn it elsewhere, before you buy a computer. Most know this, and would not expect such a book to be included. Internet forums have a similiar situation.
The topic of any given forum may be very complex, as is photography. Internet forums have been around long enough, like computers, that some things are just understood, or should be, like the fact that any given forum may not be very useful unless you have sufficient background in the topic to begin with. It is therefore surprising to some members of forums that there are people who don't realize this, and ask a simple, basic, beginner type question on a forum, indicating they lack a backround, and are told to go elsewhere first to get that background and information.
That is probably a good answer, as it is for their own good.
An internet forum is not the place for beginners to try to learn that background.
It should be obvious then that the real value of an internet forum is realized after a person has a background, and not realized by trying to get that backround from the forum itself, as many think they can do, and sadly, are encouraged to do by some. In trying to do so, they can walk away confused and mislead, and can just create frustration for those who are knowledgeable in the forum topic.
Someone pointed out earlier that there is lately a lot of wrong information on the internet and forums. That is not surprising, when you have people who have learned what they know only from internet forums, and not "elsewhere".
After the basics are learned from books, articles, etc, I recommend one go into the past threads of this site, going back to the beginning and reading through forums and threads relating to one's topics of interest. APUG probably has the greatest concentration of good knowledge and experience of analog photography found anywhere, and it is all there for us anytime. Reading through, one can sort out the right from the wrong, truth from myth. It may take a little time to do it, but learning takes time.
Then, if one cannot find an answer to a question there, one can always post the question.
Speaking as someone who has gone through all the complexity and come full circle, I respectfully disagree with PE on this. I would honestly say with some good basic instruction and sticking to manufacturer directions, it is quite easy to make technically excellent negatives.
I respectfully disagree with PE on this. I would honestly say with some good basic instruction, and sticking with manufacturer directions, it is quite easy to make technically excellent negatives. Printing is more complex (and obviously involves artistry), but is relatively linear and logical in the progression of techniques.
I would like to add an analogy of my own. We often get threads from people who have difficulty loading SS reels. One could write paragraphs on how to do it. In the end you would have something quite inferior to what the poster would get from a 5 minutes HOWTO video. It's not flippant or uncaring to point someone to a site other than APUG. I'm sorry that Peter and Julie feel that way.
I have not been very clear, it would seem. I would be grateful if I asked for help and as part of a reply, I was directed to a pertinent and useful resource elsewhere. I would feel let down if the response was more along the lines of "a Google search would provide you with the answer to your question".
I'm definitely seeing more of it lately, not just with new members either. I've posted a recent announcement urging everyone to report this behavior.I've noticed several long time members going off on new comers questions . ..what's up with that?
If you want this place to be just nasty go start your own forum called NASTY ANALOG PHOTOGRAPHY. .PLAY NICE PEOPLE THIS IS BORING ...
Have a nice day
Peter
I'd "like" your post if there was a like buttonI'm very grateful that you have posted that announcement, Sean. I have often lately wanted to reassure newcomers that they should ignore the grumpy old men.
We are living in tense and anxious times. Communities like this can be a refuge, but only if we make sure that they remain so.
We are living in tense and anxious times.
We are also living in amazing times to be a fan of film and the darkroom, just so many opportunities to live the analog life.
You know, i don't think it needs changing very much, except insofar as its members are able to adapt to the way the world changes and continues to change.
If sean thought it a good idea to have a beginne's forum it's fine by me. I'm less sure that there needs to be a separate bpug.
Apug is the home of photographic orthodoxy and conservatism. In its own way that's not necessarily a bad thing,but it perhaps also means that it tends to be populated by an older demographic who are more used to a model of learning where the respected expert directs the learning of the admiring student.
Forums, perhaps the Internet generally, or even education generally over the last few decades, encourages a flatter more dialogic model of learning, and younger newcomers to film may easily be deterred by an insistence that they learn in what might seem to them to be obsolete modes of learning.
By the same token, traditionalists may find themselves irritated and resistant to what might seem demanding or lazy requests for help that don't fit their own model of what people "should" do.
I'm from a pre-Internet age too. I make an effort to try and remember that I'm a dinosaur ...
By the same token, traditionalists may find themselves irritated and resistant to what might seem demanding or lazy requests for help that don't fit their own model of what people "should" do.
And in this case we need to encourage them to follow one of two choices. 1) completely ignore the request and move on 2) answer the request by making a positive contribution to the thread.
I'd "like" your post if there was a like button
... so is our job done? After 16 pages of chatter did you get the results you desired, Peter Schrager?
Drew is in astronaut training preparing to meet new worlds as our ambassador.where is drew wiley ?\ he always seemed to comment "well" on most topics.
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