What's going on??

Sean · Mar 31, 2017

michael_r said:
Completely agree with Julie. A forum is for discussion. Who cares if the same topic comes up repeatedly? If you don't want to respond, skip it. Done.

It's really this simple and trying to step outside of that results in a lot of man power and policing that's not feasible. The only automated way around it is the "similar threads" auto search on thread creation but we don't want to stifle or discourage too much discussion (after all this is a discussion forum). If we have 500 posts a day and start policing similar content and drop to 50 posts a day the community could become stagnant, maybe people stop showing up and go somewhere else they can freely discuss. I find the biggest benefit to new threads can be the unknown direction they take, new tangents, banter and friendships formed out of it. A poll might be interesting, something like:

Do you find new users asking generic questions unacceptable?
-no, i like to see where all discussions lead
-yes, they should use the search and stop asking these questions
-don't care, if I see a discussion I'm not interested in I simply avoid it

Photo Engineer · Mar 31, 2017

Photo Net has an "education" section where experts explain cameras, lenses, films and processes.

Can this be done here?

Ron

BrianShaw · Mar 31, 2017

I think another poll might be more useful: implement similar thread auto search or not.

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 31, 2017

What this forum needs is more Trunk Monkeys.

Julie McLeod · Mar 31, 2017

Sean said:
It's really this simple and trying to step outside of that results in a lot of man power and policing that's not feasible. The only automated way around it is the "similar threads" auto search on thread creation but we don't want to stifle or discourage too much discussion (after all this is a discussion forum). If we have 500 posts a day and start policing similar content and drop to 50 posts a day the community could become stagnant, maybe people stop showing up and go somewhere else they can freely discuss. I find the biggest benefit to new threads can be the unknown direction they take, new tangents, banter and friendships formed out of it. A poll might be interesting, something like:

Do you find new users asking generic questions unacceptable?
-no, i like to see where all discussions lead
-yes, they should use the search and stop asking these questions
-don't care, if I see a discussion I'm not interested in I simply avoid it

I'm really glad to hear your views on this. Thank you, Sean, not only for that but for providing such a great discussion forum.

klownshed · Mar 31, 2017

Every long standing forum I've ever visited has a similar dynamic. A new user posts a question that's been asked a dozen times or more before. And they'll get some responses, possibly even a "let me bring your attention to..." type posts.

And then someone, almost never an official moderator, chimes in to complain but does it in a rude and condescending manner.

That's never helpful. Just because the new user hasn't bothered searching or reading FAQs doesn't mean they deserve to be treated With contempt.

Isn't this a discussion forum? Looking through the new posts, most things there have been discussed before. A lot. That's ok isn't it? You get so many conflicting answers to most questions anyway, it's not like anything is ever definitive anyway!

The way some people complain about duplicate threads you'd think APUG was about to run out of space and should be turned into a reference library.

Ironically it's the same names all the time that complain about duplicate threads.

If they'd searched first they'd have realised that those particular complaints had already been made before. ;-)

MattKing · Mar 31, 2017

It is totally appropriate to suggest a particular APUG search if:
a) you've tried the search yourself;
b) you've confirmed that there is helpful material in the results of that search; and
c) you think that the helpful material is a lot more helpful than a shorter answer might be.
A suggested search, plus a direction to particular threads in the list that results, is a really good response to someone's question.
It is also quite helpful to suggest particular search terms.
All of the foregoing build on the strength of APUG, and help new users learn about APUG.

winger · Mar 31, 2017

Sean said:
I find the biggest benefit to new threads can be the unknown direction they take, new tangents, banter and friendships formed out of it.

This is one of the best parts of APUG.

I don't mind necro-threads as long as the new post doesn't raise a completely different issue that's only slightly related. What then frequently happens is that other people post on it answering the original, already answered, question and not the new one.

Sean · Mar 31, 2017

BrianShaw said:
I think another poll might be more useful: implement similar thread auto search or not.

Will get that up soon..

Gerald C Koch · Mar 31, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Well then, I guess I am done. Right?

+1

Gerald C Koch · Mar 31, 2017

Perhaps it would be good to indicate posts with no recent activity in another type color, say blue or green or red.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 31, 2017

There are two kinds of questions. There are those that are easily answered in a few words. However there are others that are much more involved and require either a prior knowledge or are simply very involved. I don't think that in these cases it is unreasonable to point the poster to a good book. The nice thing about books is that you may serendipitously find the answer to a question you haven't asked yet.

Peter Schrager · Mar 31, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
There are two kinds of questions. There are those that are easily answered in a few words. However there are others that are much more involved and require either a prior knowledge or are simply very involved. I don't think that in these cases it is unreasonable to point the poster to a good book. The nice thing about books is that you may serendipitously find the answer to a question you haven't asked yet.

Gerald books are a wonderful and a thing of joy
And they last forever...also view camera magazine had many good articles that i learned from. The Internet has speeded up things and some newbies want quick answers
Photography can't be learned in a day...or a week or a month...I'm still learning but I do have the basics down...make a good negative..make a good print from that
You'll never learn composition from a forum
You're either going to burn lots of film or one will never get it...doing workshops with masters is the other route to learning
On a personal note I would like to thank YOU for all your contributions. ..!!

Gerald C Koch · Apr 1, 2017

Peter Schrager said:
Gerald books are a wonderful and a thing of joy
And they last forever...also view camera magazine had many good articles that i learned from. The Internet has speeded up things and some newbies want quick answers
Photography can't be learned in a day...or a week or a month...I'm still learning but I do have the basics down...make a good negative..make a good print from that
You'll never learn composition from a forum
You're either going to burn lots of film or one will never get it...doing workshops with masters is the other route to learning
On a personal note I would like to thank YOU for all your contributions. ..!!

Thank you and your post is well said. Your comment about newbies reminded me of the marshmallow test that psychologists give to four year old children. The child is shown two marshmallows and then is given the choice; either they can have one now or if they will wait for ten minutes they can have two. It is a way of measuring the intellectual age of the child. Needless to say most children opt for the single marshmallow. Many of the children have now been followed into adulthood. It has been found that those who are patient and wait do noticeably better in life than the impatient ones. I fear a world filled with one marshmallow kids.

I well remember a post from awhile back where a father was asking for help for his daughter on her class assignment. The problem was not in giving her help but rather that the father wanted someone on APUG to do the assignment FOR her. He obviously saw nothing wrong with this request. Then there were threads started by students who were not interested in photography that really wanted help with their chemistry homework. Honesty seems to be in short supply these days.

Photo Engineer · Apr 1, 2017

Peter, Jerry, well said.

Jerry, I must have read those same threads. I must have a dozen or so similar PMs.

PE

Bob Carnie · Apr 1, 2017

I think its quite simple for those of us who have been here for over 10 years and have seen a lot of these questions come and go to hesitate, not answer with negativity (pun) and let those who are willing to answer the questions
do so. There are those on this site actively printing and seeing new problems and solutions and it is great to let these discussions keep on coming back here, and it is important for all of us to help out if we can . Micheal R has promoted the Ilford and Kodak manuals as sources for those with problems to go to first and he is right. These manuals and books must be easily accessed and are an important resouce.

I truly hope to be active here for a long time and wouldn't it be nice in 2035 a student asks the question here ( what is causing these strange marks on my film ) !!

BMbikerider · Apr 1, 2017

Is it not down to the moderators and admin to step in if things are getting out of hand. Bad behaviour/sniping/argumentative replies will only drive normal people away.

klownshed · Apr 1, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I don't think that in these cases it is unreasonable to point the poster to a good book.

Of course it isn't unreasonable. As long as it's said in a reasonable manner! ;-) its the snarky, irritated (and irritating) rude and condescending ways some people deal with the issue that causes ill feeling (and I'm not singling anybody out here, just talking generally); not the polite pointing towards reference material. I have often linked to Ilfords's online materials for example, as they helped me greatly when I first started developing.

Also, there's no reason that can't then lead to further discussion, which is what a forum is all about.

So, TDLR; just be nice.

RPC · Apr 1, 2017

This site is different from most sites since the topic of this site is a technology that is being replaced by another technology. Because of this, knowledge is slowly being lost. This can result in current discussions increasingly having wrong or incomplete information.

Therefore, in the interest of preservation of the knowledge of analog photography, we should not be just relying on current discussions to keep it alive.

I believe we should strongly encourage newer, uninformed members to read books and articles, google, and very importantly read the archives of APUG, and not think they can learn it all just by posting a question here. I have seen many come here with questions that indicate they have a very limited background, and their questions are too difficult to explain to them without that background.

We should all try to be polite, but I can see why many of the seasoned posters here get a little irritated. Despite what some suggest, it is not that easy for many to just ignore the problem.

Photo Engineer · Apr 1, 2017

RPC, very good comment.

PE

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 1, 2017

If I have a single specific question I need answered... I'd rather not buy an entire book to find that answer. Also, if an hour of searching fails to provide the answer then I'll ask someone I 'trust'. Is APUG that helpful person of trust? I hope it still is.

RPC · Apr 1, 2017

Yes. Answering those types of questions is a good reason for APUG to be here.

Julie McLeod · Apr 1, 2017

RPC said:
I believe we should strongly encourage newer, uninformed members to read books and articles, google, and very importantly read the archives of APUG, and not think they can learn it all just by posting a question here. I have seen many come here with questions that indicate they have a very limited background, and their questions are too difficult to explain to them without that background.

Newer, uniformed members don't know always know which books or articles to turn to for reliable information. We may not know what search terms will yield good results on Google or APUG. And, even if we do come up with search terms, we often get many differing and conflicting perspectives. That's why we turn to a discussion forum where we hope to be able to ask our questions and engage in a dialog with experienced members. The opportunity for dialog is important because it allows us to ask follow up questions and double check for understanding. If experienced members think it's better to encourage us to read and search rather than ask questions, then maybe this forum isn't a place for "newer, uninformed members" at all...

pdeeh · Apr 1, 2017

Because I think it's relevant to what Julie is repeatedly saying but doesn't seem to be heard, I'm going to quote an earlier post of mine:

pdeeh said:
Apug is the home of photographic orthodoxy and conservatism. In its own way that's not necessarily a bad thing,but it perhaps also means that it tends to be populated by an older demographic who are more used to a model of learning where the respected expert directs the learning of the admiring student.

Forums, perhaps the Internet generally, or even education generally over the last few decades, encourages a flatter more dialogic model of learning, and younger newcomers to film may easily be deterred by an insistence that they learn in what might seem to them to be obsolete modes of learning.

By the same token, traditionalists may find themselves irritated and resistant to what might seem demanding or lazy requests for help that don't fit their own model of what people "should" do.

I'm from a pre-Internet age too. I make an effort to try and remember that I'm a dinosaur ...

sixkings55 · Apr 1, 2017

It's kind of funny I'd run into this discussion because just before reading this I was quitting this site and I'll be doing it after writing this anyway.
Sure I can go and have gone and researched answers to questions I had but I joined because I was looking for some camaraderie, which I'm not finding.
How often I've seen in my lifetime someone being mean, impatient and short tempered with someone else that's trying to learn something and I think to myself, it must be nice to be born with pre-knowledge and how soon it's forgotten that they had to learn it.
I wanted to share what I've learned so far, ask questions and get input but realize I'm just out of my league, hell I can't even upload a picture because I'm violating "the rules" because it didn't go to print first. Well sorry folks, I don't have thousands of dollars for equipment right now and am still getting the things I'll need and in the meantime I'm doing the best I can. I feel like I just wasted twenty five dollars joining this group where I could've spent it on some equipment I need.

What's going on??

Sean

Admin

Photo Engineer

BrianShaw

Old-N-Feeble

Julie McLeod

klownshed

MattKing

Moderator

winger

Sean

Admin

Gerald C Koch

Gerald C Koch

Gerald C Koch

Peter Schrager

Gerald C Koch

Photo Engineer

Bob Carnie

BMbikerider

klownshed

RPC

Photo Engineer

Old-N-Feeble

RPC

Julie McLeod

pdeeh

sixkings55

What's going on??

Admin

Moderator

Admin

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