What would you do? (education related)

copake_ham · Jul 19, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
.....

EDIT: On discussing this with my wife (who is American), I found that apparently, US employers take job applications MUCH more seriously than British ones, who commonly regard such things as creative writing. I have on occasion been on job interview panels myself, many years ago, for a major company, and no-one expected a job application to be as if under oath......

Cheers,

Rogger

Perhaps it is different "over there" but almost every job application in the US requires a signature from the applicant under a "truthfulness statement" which notes that lies, misstatements etc. regarding education, past employment history and other info asked for in the application are grounds for immediate dismissal if hired.

It is why almost all employers require applicants to fill out a separate application form - even though it essentially just repeats what is on the individual's resume. They want that signature under that statement.

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
I'm asking what value a degree would have to a prospective employer, and I do not think I am alone in coming up with the answer, 'None'.

Cheers,

Roger

roger--I think my job description, in the education & experience requirements had a mininum of an AAS in photography, with 2 yrs of continous work experience in photojournalism or commercial photography, plus the ability to proficiently operate a variety of standard processing machines, plus the ability to use standard studio cameras(specifically large format) and a variety of lighting. the applicant also needed to have a valid driver's license, and be able to lift 50 pounds, and needed to be comfortable working extended hours if needed as well as be able to work in different environments such as on a ladder, or lying on a floor for example. It's written in a more legal fashion than this, but it is very clear what it is you need and what it is you'll be doing. There's also a part about "other duties as requested" which is open-ended meaning you can expect to be asked to do about anything, and not really have a choice to say "that's not in my job description".

This is all spelled out and then some. The applications are literally like ten pages long. You have to list everything about yourself, going back to grade school. You have to compile up your previous work history along with references and contacts. Now, you have to do legal residency checks for immigrations type things in addition to criminal background checks depending on the position as well as drug testing depending on the position.

you get through all this--you sign on the bottom line that everything you wrote is true and you date it.

I have seen people use resumes or cover letters--which are nice to include, and usually wind up in your personnel file--but the actual application is what they look at. To lie on that would be really stupid. It's also something that will sooner or later be discovered. I think it would be worse to be discovered later on, after a career had been established, because it would tarnish your work in many ways.

For me--it's just the way you present yourself & conduct your life. I think it's unethical, and it would open up other questions for me. I just don't understand people sometimes. why would you want to misrepresent yourself instead of trying to sell yourself honestly, from the very get go? What does that say to your future employer, about how you're going to be to work with? Think about it.

my opinions only/not my employers.

Roger Hicks · Jul 19, 2007

Stever said:
The problem with lying is that, as my father said

"If your are going to lie, you must be a consistant lier or not lie at all."

Dear Steve,

Well, it appears that there is a major cultural difference here. Many Britons simply do not regard job applications as being somewhere you tell the whole truth, or indeed, anything much like the truth. Yes, you have to be consistent. How hard is it to change the CV as well?

Also, no-one knows what a Dip. A.D. is; many Dip. A.D.s were indeed convertible into degrees...

The point is that VERY few British employers, at least in the time I was employed, gave a toss about paper qualifications or job applications, nor did they bother to check references. They wanted to be reasonably confident you could do the job. Obviously for doctors, airline pilots and even accountants, this meant professional qualifications. But there aren't any in photography. The ability to take pictures (and process them, if need be) is all there is. We have already established that people are happy to hire Erie on the basis of his skills, and that the degree is substantially irrelevant; so give 'em something irrelevant.

Frances assures me that American employers have always been different. I do not know if this is from higher moral standards, puritanism or control freakery. Had I understood all this, I'd probably not have advised an American to lie. But I'm damn' sure that plenty in the UK (and probably many in the US) have got their jobs this way.

It may also be that I misunderstood, and that Erie is not looking for a job in photography; he merely needs a degree of any kind to get a job, and a degree in photography is what suits him best. This does change matters, though still not by much. Unless the degree gives him skills he needs for the job, it's a worthless piece of hoop-jumping, and a non-existent degree that gives him no useful skills is as useful as any other degree that gives him no useful skills.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jul 19, 2007

DKT said:
.. why would you want to misrepresent yourself instead of trying to sell yourself honestly, from the very get go? What does that say to your future employer, about how you're going to be to work with? Think about it.

I would be selling myself honestly: "I'm bloody good at photography. The rest is irrelevant. Including my private life."

What does it say about a prospective employer that they want you to fill in a 10-page application form? That they think they have the right to make you jump through pointless hoops? What are THEY going to be like to work with? Think about it.

As long as people are willing to submit to this sort of thing, it will go on getting worse. Fight back -- and fighting doesn't always involve playing by the other side's rules.

The above will mark me out to the paranoid as a dope-smoking terrorist. Well, I haven't smoked dope in many years, and I don't support terrorism. Everything is a question of degree, including lying: I refer you back to the "hideous baby/rotten photograph" post.

Cheers,

Roger

Robert Oliver · Jul 19, 2007

take online classes to get General Ed stuff out of the way.... The commute to the computer should be easier than commuting hours during the midwest winter.

Sirius Glass · Jul 19, 2007

Roger,

In the US, as others have stated, at the end of the application form above the signature line quite often says:

"Under penalty of perjury ..."

Steve

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
IWhat does it say about a prospective employer that they want you to fill in a 10-page application form? That they think they have the right to make you jump through pointless hoops? What are THEY going to be like to work with? Think about it.

I don't have to think about it. I've filled out longer job applications for the Federal gov't. I was even offered a job as a biomedical photographer in the VA system--I had gone through the application process, had been vetted, had been interviewed, selected and offered the position--at the last minute I got bumped, because of a priority for a disabled vet to get the position instead. By that same token, we had a position once, where we had already begun interviewing candidates, and had to hire a transfer into that position from another agency that was laying people off. We were actually in the middle of the interviews when this happened. That was a tough one--really--we had some good applicants. Very hard to call people up and tell them the news there, but I had been in the same place years before. I have been on both sides of this issue, trust me.

Everyone who applies for a permanent job has to fill out the same applications. Even if you don't have to be drug tested, if you get hurt on the job and worker's comp is filed, then you will probably be tested on the spot. The same with the driver's license. You wreck a company car and you have no license, and lied about it? Good luck. You get a DWI and lose your license? You're probably okay in the job, but it depends on what you have to do. The employer will be notified though, and if for some reason it's your responsibility to notify them and you don't? Good luck. Same goes if you're arrested. I don't have to think about it much, because I've never presented myself any other way than what I am, or what my background was. When I worked with the "network" type system of studios and labs--I will say that system is much more unforgiving than the formal job applications. Rub someone the wrong way, make a mistake on the job? Word gets around.

None of us know what the OP's qualifications are, and what sort of jobs he's applying for etc. What happens if he gets the degree, and still doesn't get the jobs? In this case--it would be better to have the ten page application or some corporate type scenario, because if he is qualified, he might have some recourse to figure out why he wasn't hired.

Erie--good luck all the same. the world has changed in commercial graphics, and is moving very fast. computer type degree and some experience there--definitely would help.

my opinions only/not my employers.

Roger Hicks · Jul 19, 2007

Stever said:
Roger,

In the US, as others have stated, at the end of the application form above the signature line quite often says:

"Under penalty of perjury ..."

Steve

Dear Steve,

Cross it out...

If everyone had the courage to do that, they'd soon stop thinking they can own you body and soul.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jul 19, 2007

DKT said:
I don't have to think about it.

As Frances pointed out, you don't have to think about anything.

I just prefer it if I do.

Cheers,

Roger

copake_ham · Jul 19, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Steve,

Cross it out...

If everyone had the courage to do that, they'd soon stop thinking they can own you body and soul.

Cheers,

Roger

Hmmm....

What's that old Irish Proverb:

"Lord grant me:
- The strength to change the things I can change;
- The patience to accept the things I cannot; and
- The wisdom to know the difference."

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

there are plenty of people who fill out those applications. one job we had recently had over 260 in the first day it was listed, and that wasn't even a permanent job. I get approached often from photographers looking to get out of working for newspapers or studios that are downsizing etc. They want these jobs because of the security and the benefits--health benefits, paid leave, retirement, pensions etc.

roger--you say you consider yourself lucky in your career, but I feel the same because the job outlook is grim for photography, and for commercial graphics for that matter. it may be lost in translation, but I take some of what you say to mean being a good employee or even an employee is somehow being a drone.

if someone is applying for one of these jobs, then my advice is what I've posted. That's just it though, my opinion. people do fill out those app's in other ways, sometimes they make it, sometimes they don't. sometimes they get fired. I've seen it happen, so I was just passing along some advice. take it as you wish.

my opinions only, not my employers

KOG · Jul 19, 2007

Erie,

Having a college degree may not improve your photography, but there are external reasons to get it. For instance, I knew a master carpenter who was teaching at a vocational/technical college, and he was required to work on his Master's degree, because it made the college look better to the accreditation board. Without advancing his education they would not allow him to teach.

So definitely work towards your degree. It will help you get past the institutionalized gate keepers who don't know, and don't care how good a job you can do - they're just following a list they got from someone else.

If you can get your associate's degree locally - do it the sooner the better.

I know the dilemma you're facing, because I just finished up a bachelor's degree in Geography, 28 years after I received my associate's degree. The irony is that the geography courses didn't cover anything I'll either use in my continuing career in map making!!! But, I know it will be worth it.

Kevin

Roger Hicks · Jul 19, 2007

DKT said:
this reminds me of a job interview where the job was for someone to develop film. the lab used stainless steel reels. one of the requirements was to know how to load a stainless steel reel--you had to do it in front of the people interviewing you. one of the applicants had about 25 yrs or so of solid commercial experience, yet their darkroom skills were non-existent. They had always been the shooter, not the lab guy, so to them--this was an insult almost to have to do this lowly thing. They in fact, laughed it off in the interview, so they didn't get the job because they wouldn't do any of the stuff the other applicants did.

It was an attitude thing. This person later was hired for another job, and was a very good photographer--who unfortunately passed away a few years ago, and in many ways I miss the skills he took with him. But up front--that day--that was the wrong thing to do. If someone asks you to do something in an interview, and you say "oh yeah, i can do that in my sleep ha!" and then you can't do it? well, geez.....I sure feel good about handing you my film to run....

as for "thinking about it"--you make it sound as if I'm some sort of drone. I would maybe take offense to this, but I think it's just lost in translation here. I guess I'm somewhat mercenary about this--since I assume that I like my job and I like getting paid, and I like the security, and I like the paid sick & vacation leave, and I like the fact that when I'm 50 I can retire with full benefits and a pension because I was dumb enough to fill out those applications when I was younger. If that's a fantasy of some sort, then I'll take it. I have no problems with that. I did a lot more worrying when I was a freelancer.

my opinions only/not my employers.

Sorry -- wasn't meant to be any more offensive than your 'Think about it'. I take your point about mercenary willingness, and sometimes wish I were more like that, as I'd almost certainly be a richer man today. For a start, I'd have become a freemason in my 'teens, when a friend of my father's offered to put me up for his lodge.

The thing is though, I greatly value the ability to say, 'f*** you' to people who want to take more of my life than I'm prepared to hand over. Yes, there are plenty of other priorities. But it's the people with the 'f*** you' mentality that stop the control freaks taking over.

Cheers,

Roger

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

ha! you got me...I decided I was "thinking too much" and decided to let it go....hence my revised post up there....oh well...

epatsellis · Jul 19, 2007

Wow, two and a half pages while I'm at work, amazing. replies inline...:

Jim,
I agree wholeheartedly, but have you noticed what's going on around you? I wouldn't hestitate to relocate out of the midwest, If I could find a job that would at least support me. I've pretty well decided the drive will kill me, literally or figuratively, either way, I'd be useless.

Roger,
while the thought does cross my mind to get "creative" on my applications, I can't, I yam what i yam, as Popeye says...

Steve,
Exactly the position I was in 20 years ago, DEC downsized and I faced the option of being an unemployed manufacturing engineer without a degree, I took the first deal they offered.

DKT,
that's the ironic part, most of the jobs have little relevence to any degree, and the requirement in inviable, the fact that I've been a working graphic artist/designer (both freelance and for others, including owning my own design firm) is immaterial, without the damn 3 letters, they don't care.

Roger, just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not a (reformed...) drug smoking terrorist.

Copake,
Where have I heard that proverb before??????hmmmm.....

KOG,
Ironically, when I met with the head of the photography department, he asked if I'd be willing to teach, as an PA for now, as an adjunct when I graduate (from that school). I will work on my degree, it's just frustrating, to say the least.

I think that covers just about everybody. And Roger, you've not misunderstood, I am in fact attempting to get hired as a graphic artist/designer, I'd happily pay a few $$$ for a BFA in BS, if that'd get me the job. Unless somebody knows of a commercial studio looking for a shooter? I"m all ears and if anybody knows of either situation opening up, I'd love to hear about it.

erie

copake_ham · Jul 19, 2007

And when all is said and done; let us not forget the "value" of a college degree:

Dead Link Removed

It's money in the bank.

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

epatsellis said:
that's the ironic part, most of the jobs have little relevence to any degree, and the requirement in inviable, the fact that I've been a working graphic artist/designer (both freelance and for others, including owning my own design firm) is immaterial, without the damn 3 letters, they don't care.

sorry--I don't know what to tell ya. it sounds like a paygrade class thing to me, I don't know really. here, this job listed with the Fed gov't, this is similar to my job:

Dead Link Removed

I don't know if that link will work, but you can search that site for fed job listings and there are a couple of photo jobs on there now.

DKT · Jul 19, 2007

here's a link to the GS rating:

http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/SEC-IV/B/GS1000/1060.htm

Michael Kadillak · Jul 19, 2007

epatsellis said:
Wow, two and a half pages while I'm at work, amazing. replies inline...:

This whole post gets far ahead of itself right from the get go. One must ask the fundamental questions about the objective? Is it about generating income or pursuing your (quasi) passion because the two are not mutually exclusive. If I could not assure myself that with nearly 100% certainty that the investment of time and money would pay dividends immediately in a 30-40% improvement in income and continue to show opportunity down the road there is no way I would do it because it makes no sense.

I can't tell you how many people I have know (including a brother) that invested heavily in money and time to pursue their passion only to see them get kicked in the privates for one reason or another and the expectation leads immediately into serious disappointment.

Since I was a small child I had a passion for photography and wanted to get a photography degree after high school and fortunately got scared out of that early on. Next it was architecture school and again reality set in. I stuck it out with engineering school and waited for my future wife to complete her engineering degree and it opened up more doors for me than you can imagine. Wife quit work 20 years ago and raised our kids and I started a lucrative business that I run out of the house eight years ago and have a darkroom in the basement. Ironically, I probably enjoy photography more in this set of circumstances than I would have if I had fallen victum to attempting to derive a living from it because I shoot what I want when I want on my terms

If you are going to go to school do it right and get an engineering degree and start generating a real income because it is not about you anymore. It is about taking care of your family and creating as much financial elasticity as possible along with reducing stress. Anything relating to photography was still crappy when it was a great career and it is only more challenging now. I have advised many people on businesses over the last 10 years and I have seen denial from A to Z.

Welcome to the brave new world.

epatsellis · Jul 19, 2007

Michael,
I'm not sure where you're coming from (not meant as a slam, honestly), I've been applying for jobs as a graphic artist or graphic designer, have 20 years experience, both working for others and my own design firm, and am having issues simply due to not having a BA or BFA. The jobs I was appyling for are about a 250% increase in pay from where I'm at now. Granted, part of it is geographical, but relocation is a given at this point.

I've taken care of my family, the kids are grown, gone and have families of their own. I simply don't wish to be self employed anymore, I'd like to have a life, simply put. It's my wife and I, no debt, living expenses reduced to a very low $$$ level, while still maintaining a standard of living. (I still have my home theater, for instance, though living in a rental makes it a little harder to hang a honking big CRT projector and 8' screen from the ceiling) Everything we own is paid for, and I don't even have a credit card. Maybe in some people's eyes, I'm doing poorly, but I don't worry about losing my job, followed by losing the car, house, etc. I left that world 9 years ago when I moved here, and I am in no rush to ever go back to maintaining a lifestyle with debt.

I have the ability to do what I want for a change. So as a matter of fact, it is about me.

It's not about the money, I've been dirt poor, filthy rich and everywhere in between. Amazingly, in retrospect, I've been happiest without significant amounts of liquid capital. I don't need or want the new car, big house, etc., just a little beer money, (well film and lens money in reality, up until recently, I still had 20 of the case of Corona's a friend bought me for my 40th birthday, in 2003.) groceries in the cabinet and gas in the van.

I've had all that material crap, and all it left was a hollow feeling in me. Happiness, nope, not even close. 150 years ago, I'd of been the town tinker. I find more satisfaction in keeping an older vehicle in like new running condition, and walking into my kitchen in the morning looking at the cabinets I made with my two hands. Not the $20,000 kitchen I had in the last house I had built, for example. In an ideal world, I'd live in in the middle of the woods, in a house I built with my own 2 hands, and didn't owe anybody a dime for.

My desire to get a BFA in photography is simple, I can test out of 2 years worth of the core classes, as well as all of the photography electives, I just need to take the humanities and science classes, and any classes that interest me. So in reality, with a little work, I should be able to have an AFA in about 3 semesters, part time (with one of them being a summer). From there it's a university, which has a transfer program in place with the 2 years CC I'll be attending, bypassing the entire acceptance process. (including the portfolio review, etc.)

The reality is I just need a bachelor of arts or fine arts degree to get any upper level graphic design job, and photography is the most expeditious.
It's not an experience or knowledge issue at all. I've gotten the same response for every job I've applied for, adequately or over qualified for the position, with the exception of the degree. Makes it pretty clear to me. (fine, I'll play the game, but on my terms, so to speak)

Engineering holds no appeal to me, BTDT, have the tee shirt. In reality, that was my goal my entire life, and once I actually had a position as an engineer, the reality didn't coincide with the romance. Some enjoy it, and they have my deepest respect. For two years, I went to work everyday, really dreading it. Leaving engineering was the best thing I ever did. While I did have some interesting projects, overall I found it stifling. Maybe suffocating. Seems that specialization is the key, and I am more of a generalist, a la DaVinci.

A significantly wide knowledge base, helps you consistently "think outside the box", and apply seeming disparate skills when neccessary. As an example, a few years ago, we needed a CNC router for our signshop, I bought a decently built older one and immersed myself in the CNC world for 12 months, In the end, not only did I have a nice machine, but had engineered a retrofit for a line of machines long abandoned by the mfr, and installed several (nice way to get a paid vacation, too) across the country. I still consult, and have designed a few machines I'll get around to building soon.

I appreciate your input Michael, but realize not all of us have a desire to be on the financial merry go round so typical of today's society. I'd rather die friend rich and money poor than the other way around.

erie

Michael Kadillak · Jul 20, 2007

epatsellis said:
Michael,
I'm not sure where you're coming from (not meant as a slam, honestly), I've been applying for jobs as a graphic artist or graphic designer, have 20 years experience, both working for others and my own design firm, and am having issues simply due to not having a BA or BFA. The jobs I was appyling for are about a 250% increase in pay from where I'm at now. Granted, part of it is geographical, but relocation is a given at this point.

I've taken care of my family, the kids are grown, gone and have families of their own. I simply don't wish to be self employed anymore, I'd like to have a life, simply put. It's my wife and I, no debt, living expenses reduced to a very low $$$ level, while still maintaining a standard of living. (I still have my home theater, for instance, though living in a rental makes it a little harder to hang a honking big CRT projector and 8' screen from the ceiling) Everything we own is paid for, and I don't even have a credit card. Maybe in some people's eyes, I'm doing poorly, but I don't worry about losing my job, followed by losing the car, house, etc. I left that world 9 years ago when I moved here, and I am in no rush to ever go back to maintaining a lifestyle with debt.

I have the ability to do what I want for a change. So as a matter of fact, it is about me.

It's not about the money, I've been dirt poor, filthy rich and everywhere in between. Amazingly, in retrospect, I've been happiest without significant amounts of liquid capital. I don't need or want the new car, big house, etc., just a little beer money, (well film and lens money in reality, up until recently, I still had 20 of the case of Corona's a friend bought me for my 40th birthday, in 2003.) groceries in the cabinet and gas in the van.

I've had all that material crap, and all it left was a hollow feeling in me. Happiness, nope, not even close. 150 years ago, I'd of been the town tinker. I find more satisfaction in keeping an older vehicle in like new running condition, and walking into my kitchen in the morning looking at the cabinets I made with my two hands. Not the $20,000 kitchen I had in the last house I had built, for example. In an ideal world, I'd live in in the middle of the woods, in a house I built with my own 2 hands, and didn't owe anybody a dime for.

My desire to get a BFA in photography is simple, I can test out of 2 years worth of the core classes, as well as all of the photography electives, I just need to take the humanities and science classes, and any classes that interest me. So in reality, with a little work, I should be able to have an AFA in about 3 semesters, part time (with one of them being a summer). From there it's a university, which has a transfer program in place with the 2 years CC I'll be attending, bypassing the entire acceptance process. (including the portfolio review, etc.)

The reality is I just need a bachelor of arts or fine arts degree to get any upper level graphic design job, and photography is the most expeditious.
It's not an experience or knowledge issue at all. I've gotten the same response for every job I've applied for, adequately or over qualified for the position, with the exception of the degree. Makes it pretty clear to me. (fine, I'll play the game, but on my terms, so to speak)

Engineering holds no appeal to me, BTDT, have the tee shirt. In reality, that was my goal my entire life, and once I actually had a position as an engineer, the reality didn't coincide with the romance. Some enjoy it, and they have my deepest respect. For two years, I went to work everyday, really dreading it. Leaving engineering was the best thing I ever did. While I did have some interesting projects, overall I found it stifling. Maybe suffocating. Seems that specialization is the key, and I am more of a generalist, a la DaVinci.

A significantly wide knowledge base, helps you consistently "think outside the box", and apply seeming disparate skills when neccessary. As an example, a few years ago, we needed a CNC router for our signshop, I bought a decently built older one and immersed myself in the CNC world for 12 months, In the end, not only did I have a nice machine, but had engineered a retrofit for a line of machines long abandoned by the mfr, and installed several (nice way to get a paid vacation, too) across the country. I still consult, and have designed a few machines I'll get around to building soon.

I appreciate your input Michael, but realize not all of us have a desire to be on the financial merry go round so typical of today's society. I'd rather die friend rich and money poor than the other way around.

erie

Sounds like you are much better off than the typical American in the fact that you have no debt. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with doing what you want to do as long as you are not digging a huge financial hole doing it. We are a nation that has become accustomed to massive amounts of personal debt and it is a shame the damage that it can inflict on people. Nearly 60% of American's have less than $10,000 of savings and health care costs continue to jack us all up one way or another.

Hope it all works out for you. If the process is not somewhat uncomfortable then maybe you not pushing the envelope enough?

Best,

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Steve,

Cross it out...

If everyone had the courage to do that, they'd soon stop thinking they can own you body and soul.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger,

Once you sign a job application in California it is a legal document. They did that to protect the companies [big surprise]. Crossing out will not help.

In California, you can teach in a university or college as long as you have a Masters in the field you are teaching in.

Steve

epatsellis · Jul 20, 2007

I misspoke, on the first of every month I go from 0% debtload to about about 2 or 3% debtload. (but it's usually paid right away). In all actuality, I'm in the latter group, no significant savings (just some real estate holdings that are holding their own) on paper, I guess I'm doing ok. Cash flow is tight from time to time, mostly due to KEH...worst case, I'll be taking on about $10,000 in Stafford Loans, and in all likelyhood within the next few years, I'll be selling the houses I co-own with my brother, so I'll still be up quite a bit. It's not about the money for me, Hell I could move tomorrow and find a job within 24 hours, I've never gone more than a week since I was 14 not having a source of income.

It comes down to being marketable, I can take a job for $15 or $20 an hour, and do okay, or I can take a job for $60K/year+ and make sure the kids have what they need. I was raised very old world (1st generation greek) if you only have a dollar and somebody you know needs it more than you do, it's the right thing to do.

WRT to comfort levels, I grew up poor, welfare poor (and not like it is today, I can tell you). I left home at 16, lived on the streets for 2 1/2 months, I promised myself that I'd never be that hungry again. I push the envelope (and worry the hell out of my wife sometimes) but there's always a fallback plan.

Health Care costs are easy to control, inexpensive catastrophic illness insurance and don't get sick, and don't go to the damn doctor just because you have a cold. Other than my airman's physicals, I've had no need to seek medical care for nearly a decade. Maybe I won't live to be 100, my cholesterol is probably a little high, but judging from the figures I've seen, I'd rather not. The majority of living expenses are the last few years of life, as I told my wife, just dig a hole, I'll do the rest. Not being morbid, but quality of life has always been an issue for me, and what I have seen doesn't qualify as quality of life. But I am aware that I have a lot I have still to accomplish, and the only certainty is that I won't get younger, today is a gift, tomorrow may or may not come, cold hard reality. Or as I tell my kids, life's not fair, get over it.

erie

Roger Hicks · Jul 20, 2007

Stever said:
Roger,

Once you sign a job application in California it is a legal document. They did that to protect the companies [big surprise]. Crossing out will not help.

In California, you can teach in a university or college as long as you have a Masters in the field you are teaching in.

Steve

Dear Steve,

As you say, 'Big surprise'.

I don't know about California law, but under English law there's a way to make sure that a letter cannot be used in evidence: you write WITHOUT PREJUDICE across the top of each page.

It strkes me that the whole job-application thing is wildly asymmetrical and that people's consciousness needs to be raised about this. I don't think it's that way in the UK but then, I've not applied for a job in almost 30 years. The expectation that job applications were economical with the truth helped to level the playing field somewhat. (Or, of course, I apply for a job every time I submit an article or take a picture...)

As for teaching, many years ago a friend of mine who had only his first degree became Professor of Mediaeval English at Trinity College, Dublin. He hadn't bothered to apply for the job because he had neither MA nor D.Phil., but the university contacted him and told him that his application woukd be favourably looked upon. I don't know if reputation and experience count for more in the British Isles than in the USA, or whether it's a question of time -- that was then, etc. -- but that strikes me as a healthier approach. My suspicion is that an awful lot of HR people (or as we used to call them, personnel managers) are all too aware that their own degrees are worthless and are determined that others shall have worthless degrees too.

Cheers,

Roger

Robert Oliver · Jul 20, 2007

Every time I do presentations to students about photography I tell them to get a business degree and learn photography by doing, practicing and reading.

Be a business person first and a photographer second.

There are some very good photographers that are out of business and some very bad photographers who are making a fortune because they are good business people.

What would you do? (education related)

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