What would you do? (education related)

[colrehogan]

There probably isn't much in the way of hotels/motels halfway between where he lives and St. Louis. There is a reason it is called the 'great plains'.

 

[epatsellis]

Diane, it's actually the "not so Great Plains", at least here in the nether regions...

Chris, this is a community college, probably one of the best photography programs at the 2 year level, nevermind a community college. I'm looking into how this affects my pell grant, as there is a community college about 1/2 hour away (close by midwest standards) where I can at least take a few of the non photography related requirements.

Copake, it's funny, when I met my wife, nearly 10 years ago, I lived in massachussetts, met her on line and ended up driving out here every other weekend to visit, 1000 miles (one way). I figured out pretty quick that it'd be easier to move here.


erie

 

[Sirius Glass]

It's only the last few years that I've picked up an RB system, several LF cameras and have gotten back into photography hard core. My wife is 100% behind me, and is willing to work full time while I go to school, even if the school work load becomes such that I have to focus on it and not work (at least there's Pell grants and Stafford Loans, worse case). I've given it a great deal of thought and am commited to doing this, and my wife is far more supportive than she should be, given that I'm asking her to give up alot.

I am glad to see that you have a supportive wife. That puts you 90% of the way there. You have picked the school that best meets you needs so now you are down to handling the logistics.

I highly recommend that next January you file the FAFSA forms.
http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/
All school loans require that these forms be completed.
There are many scholarships that never used because no one applies. Usually they need a one to three page paper to qualify. With your experience you should have not problem writing these papers.

Good luck,
Steve

 

[epatsellis]

steve,
already done, and pell grant approved. the only stickler is we would need a stafford loan to move, and the financial aid office insists you must have 6 credits prior to applying for a stafford loan, a detail nowhere to be found on any of the federal student aid websites.


erie

 

[Sirius Glass]

Call the school's financial aid department. They will know how to help you.

Steve

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger,

This is about him being himself. He was this way before he got married and his spouse will not respect that.

Guess what happens.
The winter before I got married, I skied 42 days [and had a full time professional job]. After I got married, she thought one weekend a year was enough for me. [People get married thinking that they can change someone. Well you can't make someone change.] When I had enough of the crap, I declared myself a free agent.
**** I ended up with full custody for the two children and three out of four people in the family were much happier.

Moral: He is what he is. He needs to be himself or he will never be happy. She needs to get over herself. She either will get with the program or he will DTB.

Steve

Dear Steve,

No argument: I've been married twice too. My only question is whether he has fully thought through who he is/what he needs/how he defines himself -- which is why I am so hesitant to offer any advice whatsoever; it is easy to overstep the mark and try to superimpose one's own history/wishes on another.

If he decides I'm a stupid arsehole, that's fine by me (as long as he doesn't try to persuade the rest of the world). I'd far rather he was happy than I was 'right', however you want to define 'right'. The latter is a tiny part of my life; the former is all of his.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Erie,

Your reply to Steve answers a lot.

There's very little more I can say that applies to your situation, except good luck. If there's any advice at all you think I may be able to give, PM or use the thread -- but I fully accept that there may be no reason to do so.

Give your wife a hug from me too: 25th wedding anniversay 3 weeks ago.

Cheers mate,

Roger

 

[epatsellis]

Roger, believe me I started down this path after alot of soul searching and asking myself what is it that really makes me happy, and what has consistently made me happy over the years. I have many, many diverse interests, but the one constant has been my photography. It's funny, I've run into a few people from High School over the years, one of, if not the first questions is "are you still shooting?" (yes, I was 'that' guy in HS, 85% of the candids in our yearbook were taken by me, it seems every school has at least one geek)

I've been thinking about doing some teaching at the local level, similar to the guy that you call when you can't figure the computer out, but photographically. I know there are some fantastic resources online (something you and Frances started long before alot of the current iterations, I might add), though I know of quite a few people that learn hands on, and somehow having somebody there helps them 'get it'. I've gotten tremendous support (overwhlmingly positive) from a few of the local working pros, and at least one has a few people in mind to refer my way. That's an avenue to pursue, at some level in the future.

I've pretty much decided that taking a few of the required non-photography clases locally until I move won't kill me, though in a perfect world, or one where my medical was current and I still had access to a Cessna 172 for only the cost of fuel, I'd probably commute, at least flying when the weather allowed.

Regarding lotsa driving, when I first met my wife online (nearly 10 years ago) I drove from Massachussetts to Illinois (~1000 miles each way) every other weekend, I'd leave work friday, drive straight through, spend sat afternoon and sunday morning with her, then drive back, 99% of the time with just enough time to take a shower and go to work monday morning. After a few months of that, it was either move or stop seeing her. The rest, as they say is history.

Congratulations to you and Frances, 25 years is a long time to tolerate each other's foibles, to say the least. She must be an incredibly patient woman

I think the smartest thing to do right now is spend some time, codifying my accumulated knowledge, writing it down, as it seems when I start on one subject, inevitably, 10 other tangentially related (barely, but related) recollections pop up.

Thank you all again, it's good sometimes to hear other's perspective on this subject, as in this neck of the woods, let's just say that I'm surrounded by wonderful, helpful, caring kind people, for the most part, but 90% of them thing higher education is a high school diploma, if you get my drift.


erie

edit: Roger, scrolling back through the replies, I just noticed the comment about 1974 and you being an assistant, hows this for a rather unique perspective: right around that same time, my uncle loaned me his Rollei (which I gave back off and on for the next several years) and at the tender age of 11, was insistent that he or my cousins teach me how to develop my own film, as it just made sense to me to do it myself. Now, how seriously would most people take an 11 year old kid, shooting with a Rolleiflex (and using my everpresent Weston II meter)? They ended relenting and I spent many an evening processing and contact printing alot of what I shot, only wish I still had those negs today.

 

[Murray@uptowngallery]

Yeah, Erie,

That school would have to be pretty damn good to
a) be worth the drive
b) teach you something you don't already know...seriously...
c) Nothing wrong with pursuing the degree, but the artistic side/and technical sides are probably a bigger factor in selling your work than whether or not you have letters after your name, especially in the arts.

I did 2 hours a day commuting when I was a full time engrg. student (and married) and I couldn't do it - I fell too far behind and couldn't spend enough time on campus. I'm back again (4th time in 30 years) with a local school. I can't justify a photography class to my employer nor do I have any open credits left, but the new arts dept chair is a photographer, builds cameras and brought in a pinhole show from Texas (to Michigan). Who would have thought?

An hour away, Smieglitz teaches at a local community college.

Maybe it would be worthwhile (if you haven't already) to sniff out ALL schools within reasonable driving distance & see if they have gems or clowns teaching there.

I know two people who went to Brooks...one said he couldn't shoot portraits or landscape to save his life and the other doesn't do photography anymore.

So where you get the degree may not be that important...

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Erie,

Your letter makes me realize how lucky I am, not just with Frances but with the photography.

When I left school I had a choice of a law degree (Birmingham) or a photography degree (Coventry). I chose law -- an LL.B. is an undergraduate degree in the UK -- on the grounds it was a degree in bullsh*t, which would always come in handy, whereas photography I could learn myself. I've never regretted the choice. But that was in the late 60s...

I will however give you a warning about working full time in photography. It's the story of the man who got a job backstage at Le Crazy Horse (substitute to taste any night club/casino where there are beautiful naked girls on stage). The first month was heaven. The second month was hell. After that, it was just a job.

What sort of photo jobs want you to have letters after your name? And why? Because here's a rather audacious suggestion: LIE. Tell 'em you spend two years at an English art school in the 80s (take a couple of weeks' holiday somewhere so you can memorize the layout of the place it's supposed to have been). Ideally, there shouldn't be a college there, so no-one else will have been there. If anyone challenges you, say, "Yeah, it was a tiny place, founded in the 1920s, and it closed a couple of years back; too far off the beaten path, I guess." Tavistock, just outside Plymouth, might be good.

Then award yourself a Dip. A.D. (Diploma of Art and Design) and if anyone asks you why it's not a degree, tell 'em that while most people chose to convert their Dip. A.D. to a B.A., which was what the school awarded later, you preferred to stick with the Dip. A.D. because photography isn't an academic course. My ex-wife, Cath Milne, got her Dip. A.D. at St. Martin's in London, and refused to change it to a B.A., which is where I got the idea.

Good stories about your wife and the Rollei. When Frances and I met, she was in L.A. and I was in Bristol (spending 2 or 3 weeks in California). That was May 81. In August 81 she flew over to the UK for a couple of weeks and we were engaged. In December 81 I flew out to collect her (stayed a month -- I'd just given up the day job and gone freelance) and in June 82 we were married. We reckon we're on about our 6th or 7th date right now.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Sirius Glass]

What sort of photo jobs want you to have letters after your name? And why? Because here's a rather audacious suggestion: LIE. Tell 'em you spend two years at an English art school in the 80s (take a couple of weeks' holiday ...

What a lawyer telling someone to lie!!!

Roger, I am shocked!

How Nixon-esque ... "but it would be wrong ..."

Steve

 

[DKT]

i wouldn't lie about it on an application for a variety of ethical reasons, but also because-well...if you're applying for a job as a STAFF postition be it as a designer or a photographer or some sort of hybrid position, then that says to me that it is either corporate or in government. I work as a staffer in a design dept. with many positions. each has some sort of official paygrade & job description. usually degrees are required, and sometimes certificates for tradework are required as well. often you can have equivalent amounts of professional work experience that can add up in the place of a degree, if that's applicable. You generally need 2-5 yrs of work experience for a lot of these jobs *on top* of the degree.

One thing the type of degree will get you though, is in where you start off within the pay scale itself. Having a degree will help you get into the "professional" pay grades if the employers have a distinction between "technical" and "professional" positions. again--look at what you get. A technical grade gets time and a half for overtime. a professional is straight time. this is the nature of the beast for staff positions. the degree--maybe you need it, maybe you don't. maybe it helps, maybe it won't.

but if you lie--they will find out. for one thing, personnel dept's will check out your application to the last letter, follow your ref's etc. they do background checks and the like as well, so they will find out. If they do hire you, and the lie is revealed-you will lose the job probably. so I think--just my opinion of course--that it's best to be honest.

I question why it is that with all that experience in commercial photography, that you would need a BFA for a photographer/designer job, but I also wonder if that's because the job market has changed so much now, that the skills maybe you would need would be more in line with computer graphics and the like. I know from experience the photographers we have hired (and the way I was hired), they looked at experience over the degrees. They also tested applicants out on the spot--we would have them do some darkroom work, do some studio work, make them show us that they knew what they were doing. They hire carpenters the same way--throw them in the shop and tell them to build a cabinet or something and see how they do it. Supervisory jobs are different though. The degree may be more important there, but then again, you probably won't be doing much else than managing others.

good luck all the same, my opinions only/not my employers.

 

[copake_ham]

I too cannot understand how anyone who is an attorney could recommend another to engage in an act of lying; that is to commit fraud and misrepresentation.

And, as DKT correctly points out, the downsides of being "found out" are profound; particularly if the position is well-paying, as is often the case for jobs requiring a particular credential.

FWIW, for those who have not been in the corporate job market lately - prospective employers are usually overloaded with resumes when then advertise a position. They will use basic qualification to winnow down this pool to make it a more manageable situation.

The worse factor is, only about 10% or so of real jobs are advertised. Anyone who's been on a job search will tell you that the advice is to network, network and then, network.

Networking is the one method whereby it may be possible to short-circuit the "credential" threshhold.

The requirement of a degree is likely due to the fact that the actual hiring manager has been asked by her Human Resources Department to create a job description so they can "fill the slot". She therefore m/l has to create a educational requirement - even if she would be willing to entertain applicants who have equivalent or better experience etc.

Networking is a strategy for getting around the HR Department by making direct contact with the actual hiring manager. Obviously, HR Departments hate being cut out of the loop - but there is little they can do if the hiring manager says: "I want this person. Make it work."

I'll leave it to the OP to consult job hunting books for how to identify and network with hiring managers in his chosen field. But it is a way of getting around the credential barrier without engaging in fraud and misrepresentation.

 

[epatsellis]

Roger/Murray,
that's the ironic thing, it's not photography jobs I'm applying for specifically, every graphic design job I applied for has a BA or BFA as a requirement, without specifying in what. I even asked one HR person if I had a BFA in photography would I be qualified, and was told yes. Doesn't matter what field the degree is in, just that you have THE m&(^%^& f#$%(*%#% degree.(to paraphrase the late Richard Pryor)

Total and utter bullshit, if you want my opinion, at the very same place of employment I am at now, we had a graphic artist, BA in graphic design and all. It wasn't until I made him run the work he had designed on press did he truly get it, design is not some abstract, feel good thing, but a series of compromises, so that you can actually have an end product (way back when, it was a concept called design for manufacturing, guess the idea wasn't PC enough).

While I would love to shoot commercially for a living, the practical aspects (making enough to pay the bills, eat, drive somewhere, etc.) generally preclude that, at 44 I've come to enjoy those little things too much. I've cut expenses as far as I can, and while I carry no debt, the flip side of that is that I have minimal credit as well. (the only good thing is at least my heirs will have something to fight over, besides a pile of bills)

Forgive the ramblings, I'm in a somewhat philosophical mood here, looking at my 44th in about 5 mins, seems not that long ago I was but a mere lad...


erie

 

[Murray@uptowngallery]

Happy birthday

 

[colrehogan]

Happy Birthday, Erie.

 

[Jim Jones]

When a large company is managed by small-minded people who let strangers determine the value of prospective employees by tacking a few letters behind their name, that company may be a poor prospect for career employment. I've been happier when working for and with performance driven people. During a military career I did official photography when no one better qualiried was available. As an undergraduate, I did much of the school's photography. As a graduate student, I was a teaching assistant in photography. This was because of experience. The total lack of academic credentials was no handicap. As Jovo says, "And keep in mind that neither musicians, nor photographers attract an audience with their credentials. It's their work that matters." Apparently some CPAs disagree. Do you really want to work for THEM?

While you can listen to useful audio tapes while commuting, please don't give them the attention they deserve. you have an obligation to other drivers, to your wife, and even to yourself to drive safely. The waste of a quarter of your waking hours over a year or two knocks a big chunk out of your life.

Consider the dollars: when I commuted almost an hour to work, the cost of operating the car and a few commute related incidentals consumed about a third of the pay. The questionable assurance of a well-paying career may make it worthwhile to you. A small company of motivated people on the way up instead of a big company run downhill by mere moneymakers might also be a good gamble. It's certainly more fun.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Total and utter bullshit, if you want my opinion...

That's it, really, which is why I'd have no compunction in lying in this situation. They're lying to you, saying you need a degree; so lie straight back at them, and say you've got one.

Who is harmed? Well, I suppose, someone else who is up for the same job; has no degree; is honest about it; and loses out to you. But from a purely ethical standpoint, I have no problems with making it up. I can even fudge it convincingly for myself: SUNY is convinced (for no reason I have ever discovered) that I have a Ph.D. and whenever they have written to me (usually to review a paper) they have addressed me as Dr. Hicks. A copy of one of those letters would be quite convincing!

You can probably buy an over-the-counter degree which is of the same value as the made-up one, viz., zero, and I'd be amazed if anyone (a) checked up or (b) fired you if they did find out, provided you were doing the job well.

Edit: and I totally agree with Jim's analysis.

Cheers,

(and a belated Happy Birthday)

Roger

 

[Steve Smith]

I have been working for my current employer for nearly twenty years and now have the dubious title 'Senior Design Engineer' (electronic and mechanical).

I do not have an engineering degree (or any other type).

I know that if I was to be made redundant tomorrow, I would be in a similar position in that I would have trouble convincing prospective employers of my worth without any letters after my name.

Perhaps I would just go and build houses with my brother (actually, that sounds like a good idea anyway!).


Steve.

 

[DKT]

it's just unethical for me, to lie about something like that on a job application, okay?

I work in gov't and almost every job description is broken into two parts. the description of the work required for that position in general within the classification (which runs across the entire spectrum of all the hiring agencies everywhere) and then what you'll be actually doing at the place hiring. sometimes the two are vastly different.

this is why there's also generally a little line at the end of the skills required that says "or an equivalent combination of experience". It's how someone who was a model maker for motion pictures can become a "Curator" for example--because that is the job description they were fitted into, but the job itself might be making intricate dioramas. (this is somewhat hypothetical, but we did have a position that did that, and it was a very interesting pool of people that worked that job).

otoh--when I was first hired, they had the month before fired a designer for lying about his degree on an application. He needed to be an architect for the position, to do the drawings for the building codes and legal stuff. He wasn't--he lied, they found out & he was fired.

was that bad? I don't think so, we could have gotten into a lot of trouble for that, since everything has to be vetted by the insurance people and buildings need to be to code.

btw--I work with 6 designers, all of whom have Bachelors or Masters degrees, mostly in commercial design or in architecture. One has a degree in history though. My wife has over 25 yrs experience in graphic design and for the past 15 has had a very successful freelance business. She has a BFA with a concentration in drawing. She's a very good illustrator, and worked for several years producing medical illustrations for places in the RTP or for UNC-CH, but she was not a degreed "Medical Illustrator" which is an actual degree and field (well paying too). She never lied about that, I don't think that would have occured to her, but maybe she & I are just different. I don't know. it amazes that people would throw that out as advice for someone looking for a job.

my opinions only, even at home.

 

[copake_ham]

I'm with DKT.

Would you want to go to a "surgeon" who lied that he has a medical degree?

 

[Roger Hicks]

it's just unethical for me, to lie about something like that on a job application, okay?

my opinions only, even at home.

No problem; I respect your honesty and integrity. I just don't think it is entirely appropriate in this Alice-in-Wonderland situation, and it amazes me that anyone thinks that even half the job applications that are submitted contain the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Sure, no-one wants an unqualified surgeon or architect, or indeed lawyer; but a photographer is somewhat different. I'm asking what value a degree would have to a prospective employer, and I do not think I am alone in coming up with the answer, 'None'.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think the most spectacular disaster resulting from lying about credentials on a resume was the recent case of Marilee Jones, Director of Admissions at MIT. She lied about her degrees on an application for an entry-level position, worked her way up to the top over twenty years or so, and became a major national spokesperson for university admissions reform. I didn't really know who the Dean of Admissions was at my own institution at the time, but I knew who Marilee Jones was.

Lacking the relevant degrees probably made her particularly good at her job, because she had an outsider's perspective and an insider's knowledge. Despite that, integrity about credentials on applications is a major issue in college admissions, so she was fired, and in some ways, this sets the whole admissions reform movement back, or at least slows it down a bit.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Despite that, integrity about credentials on applications is a major issue in college admissions, so she was fired, and in some ways, this sets the whole admissions reform movement back, or at least slows it down a bit.

Dear David,

Fair enough. All I'm saying is that lying is never absolutist. Most of us have lied: how often have we been totally honest and said, "What a hideous baby!" Or, "Well, actually, your photography is so bad I see little prospect of your ever becoming even competent, let alone good." I am slightly surprised at the vehemence of disagreement with my suggestion, but hardly astonished. It's always up to the individual to decide what is a 'white lie' and what isn't; and again, I'd say that college admissions are a bit different from hiring a photographer.

EDIT: On discussing this with my wife (who is American), I found that apparently, US employers take job applications MUCH more seriously than British ones, who commonly regard such things as creative writing. I have on occasion been on job interview panels myself, many years ago, for a major company, and no-one expected a job application to be as if under oath. Indeed, we'd sometimes prefer an entertaining and convincing liar over someone who was dull but honest, though in all fairness, as we were hiring writers, you can see why we might do so. A similar argument would, I should think, apply to photographers.

Cheers,

Rogger

 

[Sirius Glass]

The problem with lying is that, as my father said

"If your are going to lie, you must be a consistant lier or not lie at all."​

Example:

"Do you have a degree?"

"Yes, I have an BS in BS."​

"From where?"

"I got my degree in England about ten years ago."​

"When? I do not see any time in your resume that you were in England for four years."

<< Insert crash and burn scene here.>>​

Steve