What rotary processor should I get?

[eclarke]

What is cryptic about that?

Either Jobo or the one importing them makes them fit for US voltage.

What's cryptic is that I don't know this person any way so some little introduction would have been in order. I neglected to say that the quote I posted is the entire body of the message. I thought there just were no more of them (according to Omega Satter). This message sounds like they are still making them...EC

 

[jd callow]

EC,
It was spam and if you or anyone else recieves similar please let us know.


jdc

 

[AgX]

You’ll have to translate yourselves...

http://www.jobo.de/web/Rotations-Prozessore.297.0.html

http://www.jobo.de/web/Durchlauf-Prozessore.310.0.html

http://www.jobo.de/web/uploads/media/2006_05_1_JOBO_Analog_01.pdf

 

[eclarke]

You’ll have to translate yourselves...

http://www.jobo.de/web/Rotations-Prozessore.297.0.html

http://www.jobo.de/web/Durchlauf-Prozessore.310.0.html

http://www.jobo.de/web/uploads/media/2006_05_1_JOBO_Analog_01.pdf

Thanks!! I use my Jobo 3 or 4 time a week and it is almost worn out. I would like a new CPP2 to last the rest of my life...Evan Clarke

 

[michaelbsc]

Do they have a website? Are their products comparable to Jobos?

The do have a website. www.phototherm.com

They aren't exactly "compatible" with Jobo, but they are somewhat "comparable" to the Jobos. They use plain old standard Paterson universal reels in the process drums. They are competitors to the old Jobo ATL lines, not the CPx line. You can only process film in a Phototherm, not prints.

Once you have the work flow figured out, you just load the reels in the process tank, shove the tank's snout in the processor, and assuming you have chemistry in your bottles push the buttons to select the film parameters, push start, and go do something else until it beeps at you. It does everything itself. If you do ten process runs at 7:35 min stretched out over several months, you get ten process runs at exactly the same parameters, nothing differs from one run to the next. (Note, you can be stupid and screw up the chemistry in the bottles and make things different, but nothing can defend against stupidity. Believe me, I have ample evidence of my *OWN* stupidity to prove this.)

The older units are the FP-1, AFP-1, and SK-4. The newer units, SSK-4, SSK-8 and SSK-8R are more configurable than the older ones. They turn up on eBay occasionally ($100 to $900), and sometimes are steals and sometimes are junkers. You have to pay attention. (FP=Film Processor; AFP=Automatic Film Processor; SK=Side Kick; SSK=Super Side Kick)

The SSK-8R is the current model, and is capable of full replenishment processing for color and B&W. But they're the rarest on the used market.

The process drum from the "new" lines and the "old" lines are not exactly interchangeable, but you can trick an old processor to take a new process drum. Won't work the other way round without a little jury-rigging.

They don't use a water bath to temper the chemicals like the Jobo. There is an internal holding tank and a heater+temperature sensor to bring the chemicals up to working temperature and hold them. This give you an advantage that you can go from B&W to color then back to B&W one after the other.

Tech support at Phototherm is great, but their main business now is temperature control devices for medical labs, under the new moniker of Cytotherm. (Hey, the photo lab business is shrinking in case no one noticed. Witness Jobo's demise.)

The biggest downside to the Phototherm units is that there's not a lot of amateur user experience in the community. I keep thinking we need to start a "social group" for them here, but I haven't ever done it. I guess no one else has either. This "lack of community knowledge" makes it difficult to determine if the one you have your eye on is a steal or a junker.

I wouldn't willingly give up mine, but I doubt I'd pay the new retail price for the SSK-8R, about $7K. Of course, I wouldn't pay the new retail price for a Jobo either (if you could still buy one).

MB

 

[bcostin]

Patterson drums and reels work quite well on a rotaton direction reversing base. Besseler in my case

Paterson drums work well with a Uniroller base, too. I use a three-reel drum with a rubber-band wrapped around one end to avoid having it creep off the rollers.

 

[GM Bennett]

I picked up a used PhotoTherm SSK-8 in excellent condition a few months ago for $500 on ebay, so they do come up for sale used from time to time. Although it's got a program for B&W, I don't think it will replace the traditional agitation and semi-stand development I'm used to for 35/120 anytime soon. However, for colour work, and for 4x5 B&W, it works great, and as Michael says, you can press "start" and come back when it's time to hang up your processed film. I especially like not having to worry about a tempering bath. PhotoTherm telephone support was excellent, and they can burn new program chips for you if the standard programs don't suit.

Graham

 

[michaelbsc]

I picked up a used PhotoTherm SSK-8 in excellent condition a few months ago for $500 on ebay, so they do come up for sale used from time to time.

I just got another one delivered today by UPS listed as parts or repair. It's clearly a junker, but it had the part I wanted, so there you go. (Wow, I'm starting a Phototherm junkyard, err, salvage yard.)

Although it's got a program for B&W, I don't think it will replace the traditional agitation and semi-stand development I'm used to for 35/120 anytime soon.

Well, you're right. You certainly cannot do semi-stand development. It is an honest to goodness continuous rotary processor, so if you need to do compensating development it's not the right tool without getting a custom eeprom for a two bath developer. But I've adjusted to that pretty well. I stick everything in it now. 4X5, 120, 127, and 135. I'm even working on sawing up a few Paterson reels to make 16mm ones. Just make sure that you use the clips on 120 and 127 so the film stays put in the reels.

... you can press "start" and come back when it's time to hang up your processed film. I especially like not having to worry about a tempering bath.

I didn't really realize these facts when I bought the first one for $25. Mostly I was looking for something relatively automated and for some reason the Jobos that month were going for insane prices. Once I actually got it home and figured out what it could do if I fixed it up, I got the Phototherm website and sent a plea for help to the tech support address.

PhotoTherm telephone support was excellent, and they can burn new program chips for you if the standard programs don't suit.

Don't know about the phone support, since I've always used email, but they're very good about answering questions and providing information. I'm a happy camper.

Michael

 

[LordMagnus]

I've got an old Color by beseler unit (single direction). The drums it came with were for 8x10, and smaller prints and negatives. The only problem is they spin too fast, I tried to slow them down with a 5amp motor speed controller, the only problem is the controller killed the motor torque, and the unit kept stalling. My new idea is to rig a timer with an adj. interval timer, say several fixed setting of 5,10,15,20,25,30 secs every minute, it would turn the unit on for agitation.

 

[michaelbsc]

I've got an old Color by beseler unit (single direction). The drums it came with were for 8x10, and smaller prints and negatives. The only problem is they spin too fast, I tried to slow them down with a 5amp motor speed controller, the only problem is the controller killed the motor torque, and the unit kept stalling. My new idea is to rig a timer with an adj. interval timer, say several fixed setting of 5,10,15,20,25,30 secs every minute, it would turn the unit on for agitation.

If you use a timer to stop it, then the chemicals will be sitting on the bottom of the tank instead of sloshing around the whole surface as designed. This will give you extremely uneven development.

I have trouble imagining how they can spin too fast. It seems to me that it will either turn at the factory speed or fail to turn at all.

 

[Larry Bullis]

You have aroused my interest in the Sidekick. I got mine a few years back when a local one hour got put out of business by WalMart, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since. I'm wondering, do you HAVE to process bw at 75° or can they make a chip that allows a cooler temperature? I believe that mine has BW programs for HC110, which I don't often use in my own work.


With B&W, I've got more interested in using steel cans again rather than processing machines but it is tempting to run color. I've been avoiding that for a Looooong time now. But it's got to the point where, if you want color, doing it yourself may well be the best option. I've done so much of it, that it is real hard to look at it as something new and exciting.

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

It's also fairly straight-forward to make one, one of my old photography magazines outlines how to rig one up using an old electric mixer and some bits from the hardware store. It's just 4 wheels, 2 of which are motorised to spin in a particular direction. You could probably make it out of lego, if you wanted to...

 

[Lee L]

One obscure note, from experience:

If you decide to try regular stainless tanks horizontally on a reversing motor base, don't use Hewes reels. The sudden reversing action can make the film perforations jump the hooks that hold it on the reel, causing the film to "walk" off the reel. I learned this doing constant fixer agitation on a Beseler Motor Base, and had about a 16 inches of film slip out of the reel. Now I switch the base to unidirectional mode in the direction forcing the film back into the reel when I do that.

Lee

 

[GM Bennett]

You have aroused my interest in the Sidekick. I got mine a few years back when a local one hour got put out of business by WalMart, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since. I'm wondering, do you HAVE to process bw at 75° or can they make a chip that allows a cooler temperature? I believe that mine has BW programs for HC110, which I don't often use in my own work.

I understand that they can do that. Mine's set up for TMAX developer at 75 degrees, and it's worked fine in my tests, but I like the flexibility of hand processing B&W film. If HC110 is your developer of choice, I guess it begs the question whether it's a developer well-suited for rotary processing - of that I'm not sure, but others here in the APUG brain trust can probably respond from experience. Graham

 

[michaelbsc]

You have aroused my interest in the Sidekick. I got mine a few years back when a local one hour got put out of business by WalMart, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since. I'm wondering, do you HAVE to process bw at 75° or can they make a chip that allows a cooler temperature? I believe that mine has BW programs for HC110, which I don't often use in my own work.

With B&W, I've got more interested in using steel cans again rather than processing machines but it is tempting to run color. I've been avoiding that for a Looooong time now. But it's got to the point where, if you want color, doing it yourself may well be the best option. I've done so much of it, that it is real hard to look at it as something new and exciting.

For USD 100 Phototherm will burn a custom eeprom that does anything you want, different temps, different default times, different this that and the other. If you wanted to run at 68F (20C) instead of the default 75F (24C) it's a simple change for them. I don't do that because the local environment usually means I'd have to refrigerate *MORE* to get down to lower temperatures.

Another trick I've seen on one of the machines I picked up is simply to lie to the temperature calibration routine. If you want it to run at 20C instead of 24C, then crank down the temperature during calibration so that you get the target during processing. This, however, wonks out the machine for color. If you need both, then you'd need a custom eeprom.

Phototherm already has lots of profiles they can ship without actually doing any programming other than burning the chip. Their claim, untest by me but I have no reason to doubt, is that they can provide a chip that does anything except K-14. I personally haven't done anything except use the factory default programs. You can change the process times at the start of a run, so I set my development time before I push start to meet my needs. The B&W factory defaults are set up for T-Max developer, and for Plus-X, Tri-X, T-max 100, 400, and 3200 film. As I use DD-X for almost everything, and mostly Ilford film, I have to set the time every run. Probably takes an extra 20-30 seconds.

The caveat with custom chips is that if you want something complicated, you may have to give up something else. The older machines have some limits.

For example, if you have an older processor (FPx, SK-4) then if you want six step E-6 instead of the factory default 3 step then you must choose to delete either C-41 or B&W. The newer machines, (SSK-x) have more capacity and are not as limited.

If your machine has the chemical suctions tubes on the back in a straight line, then it cannot do six step E6 without giving up another process because there just aren't enough pipes to handle it. If, on the other hand, the suction tubes are arranged in a circle it has the newer rotary selector valve, which has enough lines to handle everything.

 

[Bob Carnie]

On top of this , the owner assured me that setting up for Pyro runs is a no brainer and was very positive that custom programs would be no problem.
One thing to note I am interested in purchasing two NEW units that are custom to our needs and when all said and done the units will not be cheap .
My satisfaction will come in the reality of two brand new units with support.

I loved my Jobo's but I am afraid their days are numbered .
Fixing a lift arm on any of the larger units are very problematic and costly, therefore the used market is only a short term fix. Each arm on a Jobo only has a number of lifts give or take a few thousand and they are toast.
I have replaced 4 lift arms , but now they are very costly to maintain even with the lost market of film , I am paranoid of their reliability these days.

For USD 100 Phototherm will burn a custom eeprom that does anything you want, different temps, different default times, different this that and the other. If you wanted to run at 68F (20C) instead of the default 75F (24C) it's a simple change for them. I don't do that because the local environment usually means I'd have to refrigerate *MORE* to get down to lower temperatures.

Another trick I've seen on one of the machines I picked up is simply to lie to the temperature calibration routine. If you want it to run at 20C instead of 24C, then crank down the temperature during calibration so that you get the target during processing. This, however, wonks out the machine for color. If you need both, then you'd need a custom eeprom.

Phototherm already has lots of profiles they can ship without actually doing any programming other than burning the chip. Their claim, untest by me but I have no reason to doubt, is that they can provide a chip that does anything except K-14. I personally haven't done anything except use the factory default programs. You can change the process times at the start of a run, so I set my development time before I push start to meet my needs. The B&W factory defaults are set up for T-Max developer, and for Plus-X, Tri-X, T-max 100, 400, and 3200 film. As I use DD-X for almost everything, and mostly Ilford film, I have to set the time every run. Probably takes an extra 20-30 seconds.

The caveat with custom chips is that if you want something complicated, you may have to give up something else. The older machines have some limits.

For example, if you have an older processor (FPx, SK-4) then if you want six step E-6 instead of the factory default 3 step then you must choose to delete either C-41 or B&W. The newer machines, (SSK-x) have more capacity and are not as limited.

If your machine has the chemical suctions tubes on the back in a straight line, then it cannot do six step E6 without giving up another process because there just aren't enough pipes to handle it. If, on the other hand, the suction tubes are arranged in a circle it has the newer rotary selector valve, which has enough lines to handle everything.

 

[Larry Bullis]

I loved my Jobo's but I am afraid their days are numbered .
Fixing a lift arm on any of the larger units are very problematic and costly, therefore the used market is only a short term fix. Each arm on a Jobo only has a number of lifts give or take a few thousand and they are toast.
I have replaced 4 lift arms , but now they are very costly to maintain even with the lost market of film , I am paranoid of their reliability these days.

I've not been a jobo user for long; always done it by hand, but since I ended up with stuff from that one hour's demise, I have one. I have been rather favorably impressed with their design but unfavorably impressed with their construction. They seem very cheaply built. By comparison, the sidekick seems like a tank (not a processing device; a military armored vehicle). It is great that they are still around and that there is enough of a market to support them.

We've lost Wing Lynch, too. I never got to use their processors, but the temp control was a gift from the processor god. I have installed five of them in student labs and managed to pick one up for myself.

 

[michaelbsc]

On top of this , the owner assured me that setting up for Pyro runs is a no brainer and was very positive that custom programs would be no problem.
One thing to note I am interested in purchasing two NEW units that are custom to our needs and when all said and done the units will not be cheap .
My satisfaction will come in the reality of two brand new units with support.

Based on what I know about Phototherm, this should be a complete no brainer for them. Especially if you're going to buy new units factory fresh. For that there probably will not even be a customization charge since they're new, although I don't speak for Phototherm.

When considerations of income generation enter the picture, everything changes in the decision matrix. For my own purpose, photography is an avocation, not a vocation. If I have to wait two weeks to get something printed because one of my bargain treasures is on the fritz and needs fixing, then my wife may be disappointed but won't ask for her money back. Customers, OTOH, have a very different viewpoint.

As solid and reliable as I have found my ancient units to be, I can't imagine you won't find brand new ones with full support and warranty to be a stellar success in a pro shop. And if the level of support they showed me, without ever having spend a dime with them, is indicative of what they do for paying customers, you can bet they'll make it work with any developer you pick out of a hat.

Even if you use them 8 hours a day I'd bet that brand new units will perform for a minimum of 4-5 years without a hitch with no more than routine maintenance (periodic line flushing, etc., read the book that comes with it). If you use them less, who knows how long they'll go.

MB

 

[michaelbsc]

I've not been a jobo user for long; always done it by hand, but since I ended up with stuff from that one hour's demise, I have one. I have been rather favorably impressed with their design but unfavorably impressed with their construction. They seem very cheaply built. By comparison, the sidekick seems like a tank (not a processing device; a military armored vehicle). It is great that they are still around and that there is enough of a market to support them.

If you take it apart you can tell that there's a lot of hand assembly in the machines. Clearly there's not enough demand that they can farm it out to some VCR factory in Asia to roll them out the door by the boxcar load. Having said that, you can also see that it's really not hard to work on the thing if you do need to do something to it. The bulletproof aspect of the design is mostly in it's ingenuity. Everything in it is COTS except the circuit board, the molded case, and the program. Obviously the process tanks and spindles are custom molded, but the fact that they didn't waste any effort redesigning reels, just using plain old Paterson reels, is indicative of how they think things through.

We've lost Wing Lynch, too. I never got to use their processors, but the temp control was a gift from the processor god. I have installed five of them in student labs and managed to pick one up for myself.

I haven't ever had a chance to take one apart, but my impression is that it's really just a pretty common industrial PID control mechanism. Conceptually they aren't hard to make, but usually expensive since you want them to be forklift proof. If you wrapped the same thing in a less expensive package it would still work just as well.

MB

 

[Larry Bullis]

Wing Lynch temp control.

...
I haven't ever had a chance to take one apart, but my impression is that it's really just a pretty common industrial PID control mechanism. Conceptually they aren't hard to make, but usually expensive since you want them to be forklift proof. If you wrapped the same thing in a less expensive package it would still work just as well.
MB

They are fairly simple. Parts are pretty scarce, but since mine is brand new it may well outlast me. I may be able to fabricate the flat rubber parts myself if necessary. As yet it's not installed (it even has a warrantee card, a lot of good that will do now) has the filters and the flow meters -- all for $200 bucks at good ole and much missed Boeing Surplus. I called Larry Kull, who sold them, and he told me the same set went for 4500 retail. It's good quality stuff, and a dependable +/- 1/4°F is really great to have.

I've wondered about the package. I knew Ray Wing; he was one of Minor White's group in Portland. I suspect that Lynch may have been Doug, with whom I studied design at the Portland Museum Art School. Doug had his hand in a lot of different stuff. Great designer. Maybe one of our Portland contingent knows. Just curious.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

I'm experimenting with a developer that requires long development times and I've decided I need to finally get a rotary processor. I want something simple and cheap, if that's possible. Does anyone have any recommendations? Do you have one you want to sell?

What developer are you using and why do you think that you need a rotary processor? Is it for convenience, consistency or to save on the amount of processing solutions required? I use a Jobo CPA2 with the Jobo Lift accessory for sheet-films although 35mm and 120 is done by inversion.