What Makes it art, when it simply could be a snapshot?

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I've always had the opinion that to test whether a photographer is an artist, you have to first repossess their house, then seize all of their assets, and see if the first thing that they do is to sell the clothes off their back, buy a disposable camera, and get prints made at CVS. If yes, then they are an artist. Opinions on art are like that asterisk looking drawing in Breakfast of Champions. "Everybody's got one." Mine is that art is born out of an immutable drive to express things a certain, whatever-that-may-be way that you cannot express otherwise.

I also hold the opinion that the commerce in art is a sort of parasitic symbiosis between on one hand the artists inherent narcissistic belief that his way of expressing something that he cannot otherwise express is significant (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to believe, if you consider yourself an artist) and on the other the equally narcissistic desire of the person who can afford to purchase art, and present the fact that he possesses and therefore appreciates art to be also significant. This whole artist/patron deal goes way back. Capitalism has just made it into the sort of Hell-On-Earth where someone can submerge a dead fish in a large jar filled with preservatives and sell it to another someone (under the agreement that the transaction is, in fact, legitimately following the terms of the precedent of the artist/patron thing, no matter how finger-to-nose and then followed by belly laughs and the lighting of cigars with large-denomination bills all around, and also under agreement that he is purchasing what is, in formal terms, a preserved fish), only to have the fish later begin to rot because it was not preserved (in the most basic and fundamental sense of something being preserved) to begin with. And then the patron foots the bill, at a huge expense, to have a second fish properly mummified and suspended in the large jar to replace the first one, in order to say that he does, actually, own the work of art that has come to be known as the first fish in the large jar. This is where you get the kid in the newsie hat yelling, "Extra! Extra! Exploitation Of Postmodernity Hits New Low!"

Back on topic.

I'm not a huge fan of Stephen Shore, but I absolutely adore William Eggleston's photographs. Whereas in Shore's work I see a sort of "National Geographic" sense of clinical objectivity, whenever I look at Eggleston's there is nothing but a complete sense of awe at what the man sees in the world; I get the sense that he just loves the hell out of photographing things. This could very well be that I know way more about William Eggleston the person than I do about Stephen Shore the person. Also, there are probably some photographs where I could not differentiate between the two, but having seen a whole ton of their respective work, I can say that I "get" Eggleston in a way that I do not "get" Shore.

So in summation, if you make a photograph that can elucidate in someone who views it a way of looking at the world that makes them either cry or feel uncomfortable or terrified or experience any or more of the vast sorts of emotions that humans can, and not a sort of ambivalent, "Oh, that's nice/pretty/not a good photograph at all...;" your photographs do that to someone, and also if you are consumed by the desire to show your photographs to people not only to elicit these sorts of reaction but also because you feel it is absolutely necessary for you to do so in a way that you cannot explain, then you're making art. Note that this audience is also yourself, i.e. your work instills in you a sense of not knowing exactly what it is you are photographing (aside from the represented object, natch.). This is probably as requisite as the aforementioned desire to show other people. Ultimately all of this comes down to what would be acceptably labeled as "having a vision," and then realizing said vision through photographs, and editing your work as to execute it, and then showing it. Its really a shame that a whole ton of people think that money needs to be brought into it.

That being said, there are a lot of coffee shops out there who would gladly hang your photographs up on their wall if you asked them and if they like them, and for free. Part of being an artist then is also probably to have the confidence to say, implicitly by giving someone your work, "This is what I believe in." My favorite photographs are always the ones by people who don't feel that they have to fall back onto the safety nets of "pretty" or "compositionally correct" or "acceptable subject matter to photograph," and still believe that they should have a right to show them to people. Always, these are people who would love to make money by way of selling their art, but who have these thoughts/hopes about as far from their mind as possible when they are creating it.

In actual summation and not the premature summary of the previous summation, fixating on the disgusting state of art commerce is really, really depressing. It's an equal amount of really really hard to feel confident about your art when you're depressed.

As a footnote, I'll admit that I haven't taken my own advice about coffee shops, but I'm working on that. Feel free to disregard my ranting as the screams of a resentful and jealous lunatic if you are so inclined.
 
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Jim Jones

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There are photographers who, like Shubert and his music, are driven to create with no regard to making a living at it. There are other artists who are little concerned with creating photographs but obsessed with the business of selling them. Most of us fall between these extremes. A few even strike a happy medium. We chould symphasize with, rather than rail at, those whose approach differs widely from our own. It's better for our egos.
 

Mark Minard

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Well said.

I think, and maybe this is overly cynical, that with a guy like Shore the photographs are almost incidental. Meaning that with his connections, he could've pointed the camera at the ground in front of him and "the system" (basically Szarkowski and one or two sycophant critics), could've built a movement around those pictures. The abstract expressionists did it with painting; look at Barnett Newman's single-color canvases.

Peter Lik is doing much the same thing today with his heavily photoshopped "images". With the money he has to fuel this MARKETING empire he could be selling pottery with the same success; the images themselves seem to me to be merely incidental.
 
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markbarendt

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This is why I see defining art by commercial value/viability as silly.
 

kwall

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I didn't read all the responses, so this might have been said (directly or indirectly) already. There's a lot of art that is made not for the general public but for other artists. This applies to photography, too. I did a weekend workshop this winter on solarization. When I showed my wife the results, she thought they were interesting and asked, "But why would anyone want to do that in the first place?" Perhaps it's a personal failure, but I really couldn't explain it in such a way that she understood. That was when I understood some photographs are made for other photographers.
 

Mark Minard

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When I showed my wife the results, she thought they were interesting and asked, "But why would anyone want to do that in the first place?"

LOL! and welcome to my world

My wife will sometimes be a good sport and go out shooting with me, a bemused expression on her face as I set up the tripod in front of a weathered old garden gnome, or yet another barn. She has no idea how fast my heart is pounding when I come on some of these scenes, and after 30 years I still don't entirely understand it myself.

I look back fondly on my own solarization phase, back in the mid-80's, just after the obligatory cemetery phase, and before that crazy hand-coloring thing with the Marshall oils
 

Tony Egan

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Peter Lik's photos are just overpriced calender art. He is not trying to communicate any ideas or concepts in his work, except that he likes making money from pretty pictures.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Interesting that his website categorizes work as horizontal, vertical or square I presume so the discerning boardroom or mcmansion furnisher can figure out what spaces to fill? Not a bad strategy for that market.
 

jovo

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Calendar art is good for calendars because it's a pleasure to look at. AA, Michael Kenna, John Sexton, and a host of other photographers have produced calendars that meet that standard. Kitsch is kitsch, though, and is a lesser pleasure if it's any at all (a certain "painter of light" comes to mind as a tsar of treacle for instance). So, for me at least, the issue isn't whether it's "art", but whether or not I think well of it. I doubt, should he ever offer one, Steven Shore will ever produce a calendar I'd buy and want to hang on the wall.
 

bwrules

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kwall;1174830 There's a lot of art that is made not for the general public but for other artists.[/QUOTE said:
Lee Friedlander and Henry Wessel come to mind. Photographers' photographers.
 

JS MD

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Modern Fine Art Photography quite complicated . Very hard to post objective opinion without minimum education .
 

Sirius Glass

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Using the brain to properly compose the photograph and calculate the best exposure. Absent that any P&S will do the job.

Steve
 

Umit

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Dear Hoffy,
I would like to bring two quotes to your attention as follows:
--1st belongs to great artist/painter Paul Klee : The purpose of art is not to reproduce the visible, but to make visible.
--2nd belongs to Stieglitz put it: "Make visible the invisible"
in light of above quotes, the stuff on the page you linked are not art and I agree with your wife.
regards
Ümit

Umit
 

JS MD

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Re: Umit
You're wrong . And I believe it is based on your short experience in Photography / probably without any art education /
Stephen Shore is a fine art photographer with unique vision of conceptual american style .
****
American Photo Art is very specific. And is Difficult to understand for overseas photographers .
Regards
 
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markbarendt

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Umit isn't wrong, his opinion about this is every bit as valid as yours or anyone else's.

Heck, I was born an American, and it is truly hard for me to understand what people like in Shore's work.
 

Sirius Glass

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Re: markbaren
try to upgrade you knowledge base
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_photography

From that source:


By the statement Bold-Italic-Underlined ==> conceptual photography is not photography. A bastardization of photographs, yes, but it is not photography.

If one urinates on a stretched canvas, the canvas is not an oil painting no matter how loud and often one states that it is.

Steve
 

lxdude

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.

If one urinates on a stretched canvas, the canvas is not an oil painting no matter how loud and often one states that it is.

Steve

Of course not-it's a watercolor!
 

removed account4

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steve

if you read beyond the first paragraph
many of the people the wiki-author listed
were photographers who don't use a computer
to create conceptual photographs

===

it doesn't require any education to decide whether you like something or not
and it isn't strictly an american thing that only americans
or people with english as their primary language can decide if they like it, or understand it.
 
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jovo

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An interesting observation a friend of mine made to me regarding "new" music that I find un-listenable, but is highly regarded as innovative and important, is the notion of its' being innovative and "original" as reason enough for it to be well thought of (by some). It will never (and this has been true since the serialists of the 20th century) gain an audience of very many enthusiasts, but to those who choose to "get it" for its unique language, it will be very much appreciated.

I find the above to be no less true of photography. The unpleasant part is that those who maintain a low opinion of us who do not share their "informed" opinion generate some pretty heated disdain in return, and that's not good for anybody.

@JS MD btw, I've read the Wikipedia account of conceptual photography several times before, and it strikes me as a pretty complete description of an artist arranged still life which has been a common artistic and photographic theme for as long as both art forms have existed. It really doesn't get at the particularity of the current meaning of the term, or at least offers rather minimally convincing examples.
 
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John Cage , Ligeti , Arel , Stockhausen are welcome , some of their music is excellent , but there are many new comers to music or cinematography with cheap equipment , copied ideas , narrow compositions or lack of technical skill call theirselves director of photography and composer.
As at apple conference , there were ten thousands of developers.
I think facebook , forums make people famous and important very easily. They get applause from Pakistan , China , Chile and Alaska and they start to think they are important as every 10000 dollar Leica M9 owner calls himself best photographer.
I think %95 of modern art is for toyota owners with a car placed 50 buttons and think they are doing an important thing.
 
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