What Kodak's site says about its B/W film

Woolliscroft · Oct 26, 2005

Kodak are currently the only company on Earth prepared to make me 220 size B&W film, for which I thank them. Long may it continue.

David.

Rlibersky · Oct 26, 2005

Kodak:
Hard to blame Kodak for divesting in their silver based products. Other then Fuji, which by the way didnt have much in BW market, most other paper and film companies have had problems. Polaroid, Agfa, Ilford, Forte, and Im sure others. Ilford is the only one, as of now, that came out of with a plan committed to analogue photography. So much so the divested their digital. They see a niche. I dont think Kodak could do the same thing. They are way too big and have stock holders to worry about. The jury seems to out for Forte right now.

Know Kodaks customer service is horrible, at least in the BW dept. When I called last time asking for some data sheets not found on the web, they told me they destroyed all the hard copies of stuff they no longer made. I think the guy was just lazy and didnt want to do something that couldnt be emailed, myself.

In the end I will continue to buy the only product that I buy from Kodak for years - Plus-x, for me it is still the best portrait film out there.

I suppose, as is normal, because they are the biggest people expect more, or are willing to make them the villan.

SchwinnParamount · Oct 27, 2005

dphphoto said:
Any plans on marketing these? Maybe you can post pictures when you get one finished.

Actually, I'm working from a set of prototype plans that BarryYoung is developing for sale. Barry, my son Andrew and I are 'de-bugging' the plans with these early cameras. As of today, Barry does have a really fine set of plans for general release on his website.

Barry, Eric and I have been kicking around the idea of selling complete cameras. If it does happen, it will be Barry's enterprise with my son Andrew as an apprentice camera maker.

MattCarey · Oct 27, 2005

You have to figure that things are changing so fast that Kodak can't keep a constant plan.

I remember an old timer telling me about early IBM hard drives. He said that they used to consider a product a failure if it didn't have a life of more than 5 years. Now, business students are told to consider hard drives to be like fruit flies are to geneticists--the generations come so quickly that you can see real change quickly.

Given what has happened to Ilford, Agfa, Polaroid, etc., I have a feeling that the execs at Kodak feel something like the guy in this old poster:

http://www.stanford.edu/~riepel/sitduck.html

Matt

BradS · Oct 27, 2005

BWGirl said:
Actually, that's not precisely true... the companies that value their customer base do indeed "support" their customers. While it is true that corporations (I have always called them 'soul-less entities') exist for profit, it is also true that if a corporation wants to maximize that profit, they make sure their customers are happy as clams!
...

Jeanette, Thank you for reminding me of this. For the last seven years or so, I've fed my family and paid the mortgage by working for one crummy soul-less entity after another. I forgot that there actually are companies that care about the customer and not just about making the numbers look good for the quarterly earnings statement.

At the big blue oval, we used to talk about "surprise and delight" features...yes, that company really does care about the customer. Too bad they're not in the business of making cameras, film, paper and photo chemicals.

haris · Oct 27, 2005

Elvis said:
SchwinnParamount:

2. I'm not sure why you find it important to note that Kodak is an American company. Are you trying to say that being American is particularly bad? I personally don't see how the nationality of a company makes them exceptionally 'evil'.

Never said being American company is bad or evil. I am American and love America however old large American companies have had problems. Kodak, Westinghouse, All of the American Automobile companies. My point was and still is that Kodak is heading down the same road as Westinghouse did in the mid eighties. I am not blaming or hostile at Kodak. Just making a comparison.

Elvis

Being American is not particulary bad. But, you must admit there are difference between USA and for example Germany. In German constitution is written that it is social state (not Socialistic, but social). Which means, atleast by constitution, for Germans there are some things more important than profit. I didn't hear something like that for USA, but I could easily be wrong. I belive that is difference.

I don't know why Kodak did what they did. If situation is that they are going to negative saldo, than OK. But if they for example made 500 millions before, and now make 10 millions, and that is reason for stopping production, then it is legally correct, but for me morally wrong decision. They will left people without jobs, and left photographers without material, because they earn less than before, not because they losing money in a way that they will got to ligquidation. If that is case, than for me Kodak is...

waynecrider · Oct 27, 2005

"I think it would be great if everyone could go to the Kodak site and read the above quote for themselves and then write Kodak a nice note thanking them for their commitment to support traditional b/w analog photography."

As the originator of the thread, I would appreciate if you posted the thread over to Kodak for all of us. Weather they give a rat's patootie is another thing, but at least we will have hopefully had our voices read.

I will continue to experiment with TriX and D76 in 4x5 only because Delta 400 isn't available. I use Delta 400 in mf.

It would be interesting to figure out what amount of film all of us at Apug have used by the end of the year.

BruceN · Oct 27, 2005

haris said:
Being American is not particulary bad. But, you must admit there are difference between USA and for example Germany. In German constitution is written that it is social state (not Socialistic, but social). Which means, atleast by constitution, for Germans there are some things more important than profit. I didn't hear something like that for USA, but I could easily be wrong. I belive that is difference.

I wrote 4 paragraphs responding to this and then decided "What's the point?"

Look here and tell me where you find the section about maximizing profits:

Dead Link Removed

Pay particular attention to amendments 1 through 10.

haris · Oct 27, 2005

BruceN, I already wrote I can easilly be wrong. Maybe reason for my opinion is that I live in Europe and have relatives who lives in Germany, so I know from theire experiences what is real life there, and I know about USA only from media (and Michael Moore work ). So, again, I can easily be wrong. Well, I have mine opinion about political issues, but as this is thread about Kodak, I will not abuse this thread.

Regards

Dave Parker · Oct 27, 2005

haris said:
(and Michael Moore work ). So, again, I can easily be wrong. Well, I have mine opinion about political issues, but as this is thread about Kodak, I will not abuse this thread.

Regards

Awe Ha!!! that explains it, if you listening to Michael, they it explains alot of things!!! LOL

Dave

haris · Oct 27, 2005

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

BruceN · Oct 27, 2005

haris said:
BruceN, I already wrote I can easilly be wrong. Maybe reason for my opinion is that I live in Europe and have relatives who lives in Germany, so I know from theire experiences what is real life there, and I know about USA only from media (and Michael Moore work ). So, again, I can easily be wrong. Well, I have mine opinion about political issues, but as this is thread about Kodak, I will not abuse this thread.

Regards

Ok, point taken. If Michael Moore and his ilk are our ambassadors to the world then God help us!

I lived in Germany for nearly eight years, still speak the language (though not nearly as well as I once did) and made a lot of really wonderful friends while I was there, some of whom I still correspond with. Still, as much as I liked it there, I wouldn't trade. I'd love to go back and visit (probably will in a year or two), but not to live.

As to Kodak, I don't for a second dispute thier right to do what they think is best for thier company, even if I don't agree with it. That doesn't mean they're going to get my business back. Ilford and a couple of smaller companies have won that fair and square and will be keeping it as long as they deserve it.

Bruce

Brac · Oct 27, 2005

I can't see Kodak disappearing from the black & white film market - after all they set up new facilities in the US for these films a year or two back and then there's always that huge factory they have in China. It's already making some of the colour print films for the European market so it wouldn't be a surprise if eventually some of the black & white film got made there. I suppose eventually workers in China will get paid decent wages and prisoners will no longer be used as slave labour in some manufacturing concerns, so then what will all those western companies rushing to China do?

SchwinnParamount · Oct 27, 2005

Brac said:
... I suppose eventually workers in China will get paid decent wages and prisoners will no longer be used as slave labour in some manufacturing concerns, so then what will all those western companies rushing to China do?

I'd love to see it too but since labor unions are illegal there and the corporations there are so in love with obscene profits, I don't expect Chinese workers to earn a decent wage until there is another 'cultural revolution'.

Does it seem 'fair' that a country which does not allow for collective bargaining to be trading on the same footing as the rest of the world?

BruceN · Oct 27, 2005

SchwinnParamount said:
I'd love to see it too but since labor unions are illegal there and the corporations there are so in love with obscene profits, I don't expect Chinese workers to earn a decent wage until there is another 'cultural revolution'.

Does it seem 'fair' that a country which does not allow for collective bargaining to be trading on the same footing as the rest of the world?

Nope.

haris · Oct 28, 2005

I don't know how it is in China, but my country was socialistic (some sort of weak communism) country up to 1992. Now we are free democratic country with free market, etc... Having in mind workers rights, sallaries, standard of living today compared to those "dark times in which people didn't have rights, etc...", I would love those socialistic times back. Period.

SchwinnParamount · Oct 28, 2005

haris said:
I don't know how it is in China, but my country was socialistic (some sort of weak communism) country up to 1992. Now we are free democratic country with free market, etc... Having in mind workers rights, sallaries, standard of living today compared to those "dark times in which people didn't have rights, etc...", I would love those socialistic times back. Period.

Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

Perhaps that is the difference between a 'capitalist' and 'socialist' society. Where as we know that if change is to occur, we must do it ourselves. In your country, your government instituted change by fiat. The worker was treated as a child who could not fend for himself. I hope that has not come off as an over-simplification. If so then I'm sure another APUG'er will step in and correct me.

haris · Oct 28, 2005

I am sorry, I won't participate here with anything but strictly Kodak oriented words.

It is my fault, I apologize again.

collect888 · Oct 28, 2005

SchwinnParamount said:
I'd love to see it too but since labor unions are illegal there and the corporations there are so in love with obscene profits, I don't expect Chinese workers to earn a decent wage until there is another 'cultural revolution'.

Does it seem 'fair' that a country which does not allow for collective bargaining to be trading on the same footing as the rest of the world?

Get the facts straight first. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Almost all chinese large enterprises have labor unions. It might be not in your favor. But they exist in all large enough factories, etc.

For example, Wal-mart does not allow any labor union established in its Chinese stores. Wal-mart has succeeded in North America for this union ban except Canada. But last year it yielded under workers and Chinese authorities' pressure.

SchwinnParamount · Oct 28, 2005

collect888 said:
Get the facts straight first. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Almost all chinese large enterprises have labor unions. It might be not in your favor. But they exist in all large enough factories, etc.

.

It would be a good idea to define terms. Yes, it is true that a labor union exists in the PRC.

Under Chinese law, the All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) is the only trade union recognized in China. It exercises a legal and heavily protected monopoly over all subsidiary union organizations and trade union activities. It remains under the control of the Communist Party, which appoints its officials. This means that by law there is no possibility of truly independent unions forming in China, which compromises workers' freedom of association.

In addition, as of 1982 it is illegal for workers in China to strike. The 'collective bargaining' contracts are negotiated between the government and company managers. The worker has no say in his contract. Without the ability to strike, the worker has no recourse but to accept whatever wages have been negotiated for him by the government.

So as you can see, China does have a labor union but it is like a toothless dog and as impotent as a marshmellow.

collect888 · Oct 28, 2005

SchwinnParamount said:
It would be a good idea to define terms. Yes, it is true that a labor union exists in the PRC.

Under Chinese law, the All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) is the only trade union recognized in China. It exercises a legal and heavily protected monopoly over all subsidiary union organizations and trade union activities. It remains under the control of the Communist Party, which appoints its officials. This means that by law there is no possibility of truly independent unions forming in China, which compromises workers' freedom of association.

In addition, as of 1982 it is illegal for workers in China to strike. The 'collective bargaining' contracts are negotiated between the government and company managers. The worker has no say in his contract. Without the ability to strike, the worker has no recourse but to accept whatever wages have been negotiated for him by the government.

So as you can see, China does have a labor union but it is like a toothless dog and as impotent as a marshmellow.

Ok now you realize labor union is in every corner of China. But sadly it is not in your favor.

If one is looking for spaghetti, he should go to an Italian restaurant. If one is looking for Peking Duck, go to a Chinese restaurant, or better, go to a better restaurant in Beijing. You should not look for an American or European styled labor union in China. It won't be there.

The English who came to this continent became the American English. Labor union in China could be different from labor union of other places. Do you realize McDonald's changes its recipe in China to adapt to the Chinese tastes? Would you tell me it is not McDonald's or that McDonald's does not exist in China? Or would you want to complain to McDonald's they are making tasteless McNuggets or impotent Big Mac's in China?

TomWB · Oct 28, 2005

SchwinnParamount said:
Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

That's funny.

Look for Boeing to move all operations out of your state by 2009, thanks to the good ole unions, china is looking good.

SchwinnParamount · Oct 29, 2005

collect888 said:
Ok now you realize labor union is in every corner of China. But sadly it is not in your favor.

If one is looking for spaghetti, he should go to an Italian restaurant. If one is looking for Peking Duck, go to a Chinese restaurant, or better, go to a better restaurant in Beijing. You should not look for an American or European styled labor union in China. It won't be there.

The English who came to this continent became the American English. Labor union in China could be different from labor union of other places. Do you realize McDonald's changes its recipe in China to adapt to the Chinese tastes? Would you tell me it is not McDonald's or that McDonald's does not exist in China? Or would you want to complain to McDonald's they are making tasteless McNuggets or impotent Big Mac's in China?

Clearly you did not read what I wrote. What good is a 'labor union' where the worker has NO SAY in his wages. He cannot strike, he cannot vote on contracts. he can do nothing. the organization is called a 'Labor union' but it is CLEARLY NOT A LABOR UNION. the labor unions that I speak about are a completely different animal than what exists in China. Is this difficult to understand? It is a question of who wields power in china. The labor union gives the worker no power. What use is a union like that?

SchwinnParamount · Oct 29, 2005

TomWB said:
SchwinnParamount said:

Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

That's funny.

Look for Boeing to move all operations out of your state by 2009, thanks to the good ole unions, china is looking good.

Click to expand...

those 'good ole unions' you speak about have done a lot of good in this country for the powerless. Boeing may choose to move out of the state but it will certainly not be because of unions. Do you think unions do not exist in Kansas? Before shooting off about Boeing up here, you should do a little research. It would save you some embarassment. Boeing is considering leaving the state because they 1: didn't get the size state tax breaks they wanted and 2: Washington chose not to improve the transportation infrastructure to the degree Boeing wanted. It has NOTHING to do with wages in the state.

collect888 · Oct 29, 2005

Too much political stuff. Let's switch to photography instead.

(Mr Collect888 presents Mr SP with a Pinhole camera) Here is a pinhole camera.

SP: No this is not a camera. What good is a 'camera' where there is NO LENS in its functions. It cannot zoom, it cannot focusing, he can do nothing.

Collect888: I know it is not a traditional camera you usually see in your life. But you have to allow variations, especially everyone's requirement for a camera is different.

SP: Clearly you did not read what I wrote. The thing is called a 'Camera' but it is CLEARLY NOT A CAMERA. the cameras that I speak about are a completely different animal than this thing made in China and without any glass. Is this difficult to understand? It is a question of lens and glass used in the camera. This kind of camera gives the photographer no glass. What use is a camera like that?

Collect888: Haha, seems you have very simple mindset. A thing can never be changed in your mind and have to match your definition. If it doesn't match your definition or point of view then it is not the thing. The problem is your knowledge for THE THING is so limited and always from very narrow, second or third hand source that most time you even cannot get the fact straight.

SP: Before shooting off about my knowledge here, you should do a little research. It would save you some embarassment. 1. I read a lot about the camera using this very best Microsoft browser. 2. I watch a lot of TV news about the camera. I can swear This thing has NOTHING to do with the camera.

What Kodak's site says about its B/W film

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