What is this stuff that's showing up on my negatives? And how can I fix it?

Hey Guys,

So I somewhat recently got into developing my own black and white film, I've done probably 20-30 rolls and for the most part they come out great and scan great (using Nikon Coolscan V). However, sometimes I get what appears like dried up wet spots on my negatives that show up in the scans.

I use HC-110, Legacy Pro Indicator Stop, and Ilford Rapid Fix. I mix all the solutions with distilled water, and I also do a final rinse with a few drops of photo flow and distilled water. HC-110 at whatever temp the massive dev tells me. Stop and Fix both at 20C. I usually keep my solutions in mason jars. Not sure if this is a good or bad idea, it seems nice and air tight but sometimes a little rust builds up in the collar and I'm not sure if that could affect the solution. I usually try and wipe the rust up the best I can between uses.

I never reuse Dev, fresh every time. I've been using the same stop for quite some time but it's an indicator and it's still yellow, so it should be fine. I usually use fresh Fix every time but I go through it much quicker than everything else so I got some Fixer indicator to try and reuse some to save some cash. I put two drops of indicator in before every use and supposedly it will turn white if it's no good, it hasn't turned white yet so I've reused it for about a week now.

During the final wash I run a hot shower for a few minutes to kill the dust in the bathroom. I hang them up to dry diagonally. I've heard this is the best because the water flows down away from the image and drips down the edge. I leave the bathroom and shut the door and let them dry for a couple hours.

Both of these examples are Acros 100 (my favorite).

http://imgur.com/a/jcspN

Thanks in advance for any help.

looks like drying marks. The water you're using contains disolved minerals which get deposited when the negs dry.

so you must get as much water off the negs before hanging to dry.

Always a good idea to use filtered/deionised/distilled water in all your processes especially if you live in a hard water area. And final rinse is especially important to use filtered water.

And some people using a wetting agent in final rinse to aid even drying.

As stated above, I use distilled water for the solutions and washes and I also use a wetting agent.

What would be a good way to get some of the water off the neg before drying? I have a film squeegee that I used a couple times but did some research and it seemed like a lot of people were advising against using them, stating they could possibly do more harm than good.

I suggest, actually recommend, that you use Kodak PhotoFlo or and equivalent.

I sahke the film roll which gets rid of most of it. The for 35mm film I will use my index and middle finger to gently squeegee down the film. I used to use a squeegee but after a couple of occurences of putting a scratch down the whole length film I stopped.

Some people use a damp chamoix leather to wipe film. If you do that, never let it dry. Keep it in water or sealed plastic bag so it doesn' dry. If it dries any minerals in solution will crystalise and won't go back into solution when you wet it again. Result is it will scratch. Same with squeegee, the remaining water on it dries out and leaves mineral crystals which scratch film really well.

For how many rolls have you re-used the stop bath and fixer?

"Fix indicator" is notoriously unreliable according to people whose opinions are worth listening to, such as PE, (and I think was anyway only really suitable for paper, but I may be misremembering).

The amount of crud that builds up in fixer is sometimes surprising to me - so it's worth running it through a filter after use, or every two or three rolls. A paper coffee filter should be good enough.

Make sure you're using the right dilution of wetting agent (and use a proper photographic one, not household washing-up liquid). Either too much or too little has given me problems. Amazingly, following the manufacturer's instructions gives me perfectly clean negatives (I'd been naive enough to follow what "other people" said on the interwebs rather than what Ilford was telling me ... )

Hint: after washing the negative I quickly rinse in clean water with a few drops of wetting agent. THEN ... I hang the wet negatives up, vertically, in an area which does not have air circulation (to avoid dust) and carefully wipe from top down, first the emulsion side with a clean, damp sponge. Then, second, the non-emulsion side with a clean paper towel. NEVER have problems. This is ESPECIALLY true if you have hard water like I do here in Philadelphia.

Shooter McGavin, you might try looking at those negatives (both sides) with a strong magnifying glass. You just might be surprised with all the debris you find. Never lose context here: these tiny negatives have to be enlarged greatly, and that extends to "so does the existing detritus on those negatives". To the unaided eye, that which looks clean just might not be. - David Lyga

Try using less photo-flo, with the "few drops" method, it's really easy to make it too strong.

I use a purpose-made rubber squeegee (by Patterson) just as I hang the film up. Yeah, I know some people cringe when I say that, but I've never had any issues with this method.

I do a final rinse with distilled water w/PhotoFlo and hang the film up (no clip on the bottom at this point). I dip the squeegee in the same water/PF mix the film came from to remove any particulate matter that may be on it, then tap it on the edge of the sink to dispel most of the water. LIGHTLY wipe down the film (I've seen some people almost crush the film using a squeegee!), then attach the clip to the bottom.

The OP's examples look like droplets of rinse remaining on the negative. I quit wiping negatives after getting a few scratches. Distilled water freshly mixed with a few drops of Photo-Flo is reliable as a final rinse. The negatives are held by each end and vigorously shaken to dislodge most droplets of rinse. A short darkroom assistant had to use a film clip to anchor one end of the film while shaking it. Make sure the clip holds!

Shooter McGavin said:

As stated above, I use distilled water for the solutions and washes and I also use a wetting agent.

What would be a good way to get some of the water off the neg before drying? I have a film squeegee that I used a couple times but did some research and it seemed like a lot of people were advising against using them, stating they could possibly do more harm than good.

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I use a film squeegee and get around any possible scratching problems by keeping my kit clean.

In the past I have wiped with my fingers, and while it did not scratch, it still left water marks; had the same result with PEC pads. I did try a brand new squeegee once, and scratched the film. I mixed surfactant per instructions but ended up with residue. Also, I learned the hard way to gently dip into a Photo Flo solution and try not to disturb it (foam).

I read a lot of old threads on APUG, and I practiced a lot before trying surfactant again, to reduce spots as much as I could without it. Once I significantly reduced spots, I played with surfactant again; using distilled water and half the recommended Photo Flo.

After I pull the reels from the surfactant bath, I shake them out, then lay them on a towel for about 10 minutes before pulling and hanging the film. This has worked very well for me - the difference is evident as soon as I take the film off the reel.

bdial said:

Try using less photo-flo, with the "few drops" method, it's really easy to make it too strong.

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Following the manufacturer's instructions is even better than the "few drops" method.

Peltigera said:

I use a film squeegee and get around any possible scratching problems by keeping my kit clean.

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You can get clean sheeting of the water by avoiding the squeegee [hence also avoiding scratches] and keeping the equipment clean.

MattKing said:

For how many rolls have you re-used the stop bath and fixer?

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I'd say I've probably used the stop bath for most of the rolls I've done, maybe 10-15ish, over the course of a month or longer. Still yellow, so according to the instructions it's good, and will turn purple or blue when no longer good. I am, however, a bit surprised by how many rolls I've put it through, I figured maybe after like a handful of rolls it would be exhausted. For this particular roll the fixer had been used with maybe 5 rolls over the course of a week. Indicator says it's still good, hopefully it is reliable.

pdeeh said:

"Fix indicator" is notoriously unreliable according to people whose opinions are worth listening to, such as PE, (and I think was anyway only really suitable for paper, but I may be misremembering).

The amount of crud that builds up in fixer is sometimes surprising to me - so it's worth running it through a filter after use, or every two or three rolls. A paper coffee filter should be good enough.

Make sure you're using the right dilution of wetting agent (and use a proper photographic one, not household washing-up liquid). Either too much or too little has given me problems. Amazingly, following the manufacturer's instructions gives me perfectly clean negatives (I'd been naive enough to follow what "other people" said on the interwebs rather than what Ilford was telling me ... )

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That's a bummer, I thought I had found a way to extend the life of my fixer a little longer, perhaps I'll try the filter or maybe just use fresh fix each time....

bdial said:

Try using less photo-flo, with the "few drops" method, it's really easy to make it too strong.

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Okay, I will try to literally put just a drop or two in, sometimes I do accidentally put a few extra drops in.

Jim Jones said:

The OP's examples look like droplets of rinse remaining on the negative. I quit wiping negatives after getting a few scratches. Distilled water freshly mixed with a few drops of Photo-Flo is reliable as a final rinse. The negatives are held by each end and vigorously shaken to dislodge most droplets of rinse. A short darkroom assistant had to use a film clip to anchor one end of the film while shaking it. Make sure the clip holds!

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Thanks for the advice, I will try and shake off as much water as possible before hanging them to dry.

Truzi said:

Also, I learned the hard way to gently dip into a Photo Flo solution and try not to disturb it (foam).

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Interesting...I was not aware you are not supposed to disturb it. I usually fill the tank half way with distilled water, put in a couple drops of photo flo, fill the rest up with distilled water, then use the rod to agitate it for about 30 seconds then dump it. Are you really not supposed to disturb it? I have noticed more foam with larger amounts of photo flo and more agitation so I usually try and put the least amount possible in.

Stop bath with indicator seems to last for ever and a day it the developer is completely drained off first. Hypo does not nearly last so long.

They are drying marks. After wash and before drying, immerse the film in some de-ionised water for about 30 seconds, swirl around and hang up to dry. Hey presto, no drying marks.

There was a thread on here once where someone recommended SPRAYING the wetting agent solution from a misting bottle. I have been doing that lately and it seems to work very well. HOWEVER, in order to avoid foam from the spraying, I have removed the adjustable spraying nozzle and spray gently from the bottle without it.

I am using Ilford's wetting agent, but seem to remember that it has a stated limited life once mixed. For my next bottle, I am considering switching back to Kodak's Photo Flo. Perhaps Simon may shed some info on useful life of mixed wetting agent.

Use enough Photo Flow and there will be no marks. Follow directions. 1:200 Not enough and it does not wet. Distilled water requires less. Double rinse with distilled before wetting if you must. Tap water is not clean. I have 3 micron filter on mine.

Scraping down film with anything creates potential problems. If there is some debris, you will grab it and carry it down.

There is no home method of filtering the precipitated silver from the bottom of the fix bottle. Best is cotton wool and it is not perfect. Coffee filter the worst, almost worthless. The silver looks like little grey stones and you can not wash them off the next film and a scraping down will definitely scratch. A centrifuge is probably how they did it in the big labs.

Use the fix one time and toss it or use it on test prints. Stop is totally unnecessary except to preserve alkalinity of fix which does not matter if you use it one time. If you like to spot, keep using the fix over and over.

Wash out all the bottles. Every time.

I've never had those sort of marks on negatives before. I use distilled water to mix developer and the Photoflo(1 1/2 ml to 300ml water), two inversions in 30 seconds, hang to dry-no squeege.

If it is citric acid based stop bath, mould can grow in it.

I never re-use stop bath for more than a day. If I'm only developing a roll or two, I mix it at twice the dilution - it works fine.

For Photo-flo, I mix up a stock solution using a 1+7 mix with Isopropyl alcohol. The alcohol keeps the mould from growing. I then dilute the stock 1+24 immediately before use. The result is used that day only.

Fixer can be re-used, but clip tests should be used along with the manufacturer's recommended capacity to ensure that it isn't over-used. I watch carefully for crud.

Here is something I wrote to explain what a "clip test" is, and to describe my own wrinkle on timing the fixing step: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I've never reused any of the chemistry for developing film. It get used once-dumped. For making prints that's different. I do reuse the chemicals for one evening (<25 prints) and it gets dumped as well.

ColColt said:

I've never reused any of the chemistry for developing film. It get used once-dumped. For making prints that's different. I do reuse the chemicals for one evening (<25 prints) and it gets dumped as well.

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For fixer, that is both wasteful, and environmentally questionable.

Kodak's recommendation is that one liter of working strength (1+3) Rapid Fixer has the capacity to fix 32 rolls of film.

wash
put a few drops of photoflo in the water
take your fingers and lift spool of film in and out of the water with photo flo ( it will foam )
take something ( wood spoon? that is what i use ) whack the tank a few times dislodge the bubbles
slowly add water, sloff the head of foam off, reach in remove and hang film so it hangs straight up and down.

the dilution on the bottle of photo flo is crazy, it only takes a few drops, that is it.
a bottle of photo flo is like a lifetime supply ... mixed photo flo that sits .. goes bad.

if you re-wash, re-photoflo, re-hang your film your drying spots will hopefully go away.

good luck !

john