What is this on my Negatives??

John Galt · May 20, 2019

Just scanned a roll of Tri X I exposed yesterday and noticed a curious artifact on all 12 frames . . . Notice the vertical darker portion on the right side of the images . .

Hasselblad 500 C/M

What is causing this?

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removedacct1 · May 20, 2019

I bet you’re using a late model Epson scanner, maybe the v750?

Bob Carnie · May 20, 2019

looks like insufficient agitation in the first 15 seconds of development... grey skys are the worst to control.

John Galt · May 20, 2019

Bob Carnie said:
looks like insufficient agitation in the first 15 seconds of development... grey skys are the worst to control.

Bob, nope, don't think so. I agitate for the first full minute of processing, then 10 seconds every minute after that. This artifact is on all 12 frames, some are worse than others. I can see why you may think this though.

John Galt · May 20, 2019

paulbarden said:
I bet you’re using a late model Epson scanner, maybe the v750?

I use a V600 Paul.

Bob Carnie · May 20, 2019

Ok - I invert as soon as I fill the tank even on a jobo to eliminate this issue..

koraks · May 20, 2019

My first thought was "are you using a jobo..." My second thought was: is the developer volume sufficient, is the reel correctly positioned at the bottom of the tank throughout processing and is there no excessive foaming?

MattKing · May 20, 2019

To eliminate scanning as the cause, re-scan a couple of the negatives with the negative rotated 180 degrees. If the dark band disappears or moves to the other side, you know that the problem originates at the scanning stage.
Otherwise, I would look at the following:
1) residue in the reel, causing foam and bubbling near the edge;
2) not quite enough developer in the tank; or
3) the reel is riding up on the tank core, leaving a portion of the film in the air.
Not necessarily in that order.

removedacct1 · May 20, 2019

John Galt said:
I use a V600 Paul.

First, do as Matt suggests and test the negatives in different orientation and see if the banding changes position. (I bet you will find that it does) I honestly believe you will find the bands are not on your negatives.

This looks to be a common fault encountered with the V series Epson scanners. I had an extensive discussion with Epson about this, and they acknowledged that this is a problem that occurs when two things occur: there is significant amount of rebate (blank) area of film visible to the scanner, and secondly, when an area of great density (blank sky, etc) is the first thing the scanner meets when it starts its travel, and this is especially true when the high density section is encountered at the outer edges of the scan bed. Epson knows about this, and they say its mainly a software issue, which they have not fixed (nor do they intend to, apparently). The "fix" is an altered film holder they can send you, which simply has an additional band of plastic in the holder at the outer edges, which occludes the rebate area when scanning. It resolved my problems 99% of the time, but its a bit of a kludge and it does require sacrificing some of the negative, especially if your TLR makes larger image area negs, as my Autocord and Rolleiflex do. The Hasselblad makes the smallest image area on film of all my 6X6's and it is those negatives that were the biggest problem.

The attached photo from a few years back is an excellent example of the problem. Be aware that sometimes it can appear as 2 or 3 bands of density, or it can appear as a single band looking like a darker edge. If you contact Epson, odds are they will send you replacement neg carriers.

winger · May 20, 2019

Any chance you can photograph at least one strip on a light box or blank computer screen? Is it really on the negs or just in the scans?

pentaxuser · May 20, 2019

The lines certainly look very well delineated to be a processing fault. Even if there is too little developer in the tank I'd have thought that the rotation would have made a clearly delineated line very unlikely?

pentaxuser

Agulliver · May 20, 2019

I've definitely had that with my Epson V series scanner too.

John Galt · May 21, 2019

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful inputs to my problem.

I scanned the images again, changing the orientation in the scanner. The artifacts did not change, still on the same edge of the negative.

Then, using my monitor as a lightbox I examined the negatives . . yep, the artifacts are on the negative.

So, Occam's Razer applied here; I must have ham-fisted the developing process somehow. I use the Patterson plastic tank that holds either two 35 mm or one 120 roll. Either the spool slipped on the spindle, or I did not fill the tank enough, I suspect the former.

PLEASE, critique my negatives. What would you change?

MattKing · May 21, 2019

John Galt said:
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful inputs to my problem.

I scanned the images again, changing the orientation in the scanner. The artifacts did not change, still on the same edge of the negative.

Then, using my monitor as a lightbox I examined the negatives . . yep, the artifacts are on the negative.

So, Occam's Razer applied here; I must have ham-fisted the developing process somehow. I use the Patterson plastic tank that holds either two 35 mm or one 120 roll. Either the spool slipped on the spindle, or I did not fill the tank enough, I suspect the former.

Which version of the Paterson tank - the older ones with the (usually grey) cap, or the current Super System 4 with the flat black top that goes on like a Tupperware lid?
And how much developer are you putting into the tank?

koraks · May 21, 2019

John Galt said:
What would you change

When inserting the loaded reel into the tank, check religiously if the reel is slid all the wat to the bottom collar of the spindle.
Do inversions somewhat cautiously.
Use a little more chemistry so that the reel is covered with half an inch of fluid on top of it.
That should prevent this from happening, I'd say.

John Galt · May 21, 2019

MattKing said:
Which version of the Paterson tank - the older ones with the (usually grey) cap, or the current Super System 4 with the flat black top that goes on like a Tupperware lid?
And how much developer are you putting into the tank?

Hmmm, MattKing not sure it actually is a Patterson tank now. It does not say Patterson on it anywhere. It says made in Spain on the bottom. It has a red plastic lid. It does not leak which is why I uses it, I got it in a box of used dark room stuff at an auction. It is my Go-To tank.

The quantities are embossed on the bottom of the tank, it calls for 20 oz for a single 120 roll, I usually use 22 oz to be safe.

removedacct1 · May 21, 2019

John,
I'm glad to hear the scanner isn't to blame. If the artifact is on your negatives, then its likely a problem with developer volume. Good luck!

John Galt · May 21, 2019

koraks said:
When inserting the loaded reel into the tank, check religiously if the reel is slid all the wat to the bottom collar of the spindle.
Do inversions somewhat cautiously.
Use a little more chemistry so that the reel is covered with half an inch of fluid on top of it.
That should prevent this from happening, I'd say.

Thanks koraks, I am probably a little on the aggressive side with my inversions. I usually uses a few oz more than called for. I will be more careful to check that the reel is actually bottomed out in the tank and be more gentle with my inversions

John Galt · May 21, 2019

paulbarden said:
John,
I'm glad to hear the scanner isn't to blame. If the artifact is on your negatives, then its likely a problem with developer volume. Good luck!

Thanks for your input Paul

MattKing · May 21, 2019

John Galt said:
Hmmm, MattKing not sure it actually is a Patterson tank now. It does not say Patterson on it anywhere. It says made in Spain on the bottom. It has a red plastic lid. It does not leak which is why I uses it, I got it in a box of used dark room stuff at an auction. It is my Go-To tank.

The quantities are embossed on the bottom of the tank, it calls for 20 oz for a single 120 roll, I usually use 22 oz to be safe.

That is probably an AP/Arista/Samigon/??? tank that is sold by a number of vendors under their own name.
Either one of these (Arista Classic at Freestyle): https://www.freestylephoto.biz/5031-Arista-Classic-Double-Reel-Developing-Tank-with-Two-Reels
Or one of these (Arista Premium at Freestyle): https://www.freestylephoto.biz/5041-Arista-Premium-Double-Reel-Developing-Tank-with-Two-Reels
If it is the "Premium" version, there is a reel retaining clip that can be used with them to keep the reels from sliding up - one of these, also available from Freestyle: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/5504...Plastic-Reel-Clip-for-Premium-Film-Developing

pbromaghin · May 21, 2019

Great thread. It's a pleasure to see such a smart group of people walking through a logical troubleshooting process.

What is this on my Negatives??

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