What is the value of Art school?

[DREW WILEY]

Well of course. But there are sometimes venues on this side of the Bay equal or better so I don't have to tango with SF traffic. Just looking at a couple of Rothko paintings was well worth the trip, even though Lichtenstein and Warhol were inevitably on the wall down the aisle. And obviously somebody linked Watkins to where he appropriately belongs, as an early eye of modern art of a constructivist variety just like Charles Sheeler, but considerably earlier, even though most of what he did was commercial stock photography related to Western railroad tourism. That paid the bills and is fairly abundant; relatively few of the big prints survived the 1906 earthquake. Somehow the MMA scrounged up enough of the surviving major works on loan so one could see them side by side, though the lighting was so dim it became a chore. But there is actually a much bigger collection of classic West Coast photography housed by the Oakland Museum. Maybe its not a hangout for professional singles trying to meet someone like the SFMMA, but it's by no means a stepchild either.

 

[Ian Grant]

I'll go back once a vaccine is invented for the Warhol pandemic.

Could you actually post anything meaningful and factual in this thread, your ignorance is so blatant that you posts are just rants of someone of low intellect or awe of a big brother figure,

Ian

 

[BradS]

I saw Carleton Watkins at Cantor center a few years back. Really amazing to engage with his photos in person. I remember wishing they hadn’t been so stingy with the room lighting though. They have some sculpture there too.

are you guys going on about the new MoMA in SF? I was a member there for a while. Well worth the price. I must have missed the Warhol stuff....or blocked it from memory. I never met any single women there either...at least none that were interested in men...I did get hit on several times though...but that’s just SF for ya.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's always interesting turning someone's sacred cow into a hamburger just to see how they react. Maybe it's been mere ground beef the whole time, but the Golden Arches mantra has predominated. I will give Warhol credit for dragging the NYC art scene into the dark ages for awhile, so I my reference to a plague might indeed have some credibility. ... But Watkins, that's a different story; he wasn't a hyper xerox machine. His prints were masterfully crafted albumens, so not particularly fade-prone; but the insurance company probably mandated low lighting levels, or else a relatively paranoid curator, because these were all on loan from quite a number of individuals and not a museum collection per se. Lots of them already suffered from mildew stain etc. In other words, I understand the reason for the dim lighting, but it really detracted from the full experience.

 

[Pieter12]

Wow. It shows how out of touch this audience is that they are upset over Warhol. There is a whole new world of really shitty art and artists out there now...get with it!

 

[warden]

Wow. It shows how out of touch this audience is that they are upset over Warhol. There is a whole new world of really shitty art and artists out there now...get with it!

That's the spirit!

 

[Vaughn]

I only own a couple prints each of two earlier photographers. Watkins, and perhaps his polar opposite, Wallace Nutting -- who is known for his mass-produced hand-colored photographs (esp new England) in the first half of 20th century (popular as wedding gifts, etc).

I should put the Watkins back up on my walls -- my living room is dark enough. I can hardly appreciate my own work on the walls! I'll have to see about better lighting after I get a new electrical service box...

 

[warden]

I only own a couple prints each of two earlier photographers. Watkins, and perhaps his polar opposite, Wallace Nutting -- who is known for his mass-produced hand-colored photographs (esp new England) in the first half of 20th century (popular as wedding gifts, etc).

I should put the Watkins back up on my walls -- my living room is dark enough. I can hardly appreciate my own work on the walls! I'll have to see about better lighting after I get a new electrical service box...

Nice.

I hear you about the darker rooms. I have to print my "refrigerator portraits" (pics of neighborhood kids held on the fridge with magnets) with skin tone hilights that go to paper white just so I can see 'em in that dark corner of the kitchen.

 

[KenS]

If you did not benefit, what was the purpose? Was "craft" the only focus of the BFA process?

Don,
The vast majority of employees in the field of 'Medicine' have to a have 'passed' numerous formal courses AFTER high one's school.education
I was in the employ of a 'Research 'Branch' of a Federal Government Department.

My Going back to an "Institute of Higher Learning" after those many years was a means of preventing "mental stagnation'... or sitting in front of the
television. I also had the opportunity to 'assist' my fellow students interested in the required craft of making good photographs.

If you have not 'tried' it... why not? ou probably have many 'good ideas' and 'skills that you could 'pass on' to fellow students who could benefit from
YOUR acquired skills/ experience.

Ken

 

[DonJ]

Don,
The vast majority of employees in the field of 'Medicine' have to a have 'passed' numerous formal courses AFTER high one's school.education

I don't know what that has to do with my question about what you got out of your MFA. I'm aware of the post-secondary education system.

My Going back to an "Institute of Higher Learning" after those many years was a means of preventing "mental stagnation'... or sitting in front of the
television. I also had the opportunity to 'assist' my fellow students interested in the required craft of making good photographs.

But what did you learn?

If you have not 'tried' it... why not? ou probably have many 'good ideas' and 'skills that you could 'pass on' to fellow students who could benefit from YOUR acquired skills/ experience.

Why not? Because I have a full-time job and other responsibilities. I assist my fellow employees regularly, as I've done for decades. I also assist my adult children, as I've done for decades. And I learn from all of them.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

To bring the topic back to the original question, I think the value of any art degree is
A - the chance to work in a community of like-minded yet diverse colleagues who will inspire your creativity and push your boundaries
B - professional networking with other artists, educators, and consumers of art
C - the opportunity to work on a portfolio of images over an extended period of time with intense, single-minded focus, away from distractions from that portfolio.

If those are the things you want to get out of your degree, be it bachelors or masters, then go for it. If you're doing it for the teaching credential, well, there's a vast surplus of credentialed educators out there, and if you give any indications of wanting to get your MFA so you can teach, you probably won't get in anywhere that's not a degree mill (like SCAD - not to say there aren't talented folks going to SCAD, but just the administration has a really dicey reputation and is all about the Benjamins). If you want to teach, and are ok with teaching in a non-traditional setting, there are plenty of community art centers where you can teach (and can go to learn) without needing an advanced degree in art to do so. I teach at a community art center here in a national park outside Washington DC called Glen Echo Photoworks. I don't have an MFA or even a BFA. There are a number of other community-based art institutions in the area where people teach without advanced degrees. They do have solid portfolios of work that demonstrate they know what they're talking about. Granted, you're not going to earn a full-time salary teaching at any of these institutions, but they do make a backstop against your art practice, and provide some visibility and exposure and exhibition opportunities.

 

[jtk]

I saw Carleton Watkins at Cantor center a few years back. Really amazing to engage with his photos in person. I remember wishing they hadn’t been so stingy with the room lighting though. They have some sculpture there too.

are you guys going on about the new MoMA in SF? I was a member there for a while. Well worth the price. I must have missed the Warhol stuff....or blocked it from memory. I never met any single women there either...at least none that were interested in men...I did get hit on several times though...but that’s just SF for ya.

Why so eager to be a pissant? Is that why you equivocated about art school and hiking? I found those both good ways to hook up with women. And btw I always found SF to be rewarding lust--wise. The City always seethed with opportunities. It doesn't reward negativity...

 

[pbromaghin]

Brad, may I suggest that if you do go for this, you wander over to the other end of campus, to the Business department? The very most valuable class I ever took was a 1-credit (1 hour per week) course essentially on how to get a job. It covered resume writing, cover letters, interviewing techniques, etc. 40 years later, I know my family is much better off because of what I learned in that one course. As competitive as photography is, knowing how to present yourself and get a job could be a very big deal.

You might also want to learn something about marketing and accounting, too. I know a very successful "art photographer" who really isn't that much of an artist, but he is a former vice-president of marketing. Every time I talk to him, my wallet somehow gets lighter.

 

[Arthurwg]

Some say that the "art is in the idea." I guess that could be applied to Warhol. But I don't see anything aesthetic in his work. For the most part it's just plain ugly. I don't think you could say that about Caravaggio. Indeed, Warhol could mark the transition from art to marketing. Let's not forget that he had made a good living as an advertising illustrator. Those shoes for I. Miller were rather good. But I don't think he ever surpassed those images.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Some say that the "art is in the idea." I guess that could be applied to Warhol. But I don't see anything aesthetic in his work. For the most part it's just plain ugly. I don't think you could say that about Caravaggio. Indeed, Warhol could mark the transition from art to marketing. Let's not forget that he had made a good living as an advertising illustrator. Those shoes for I. Miller were rather good. But I don't think he ever surpassed those images.

Just to nit-pick on your example of Caravaggio - in his day, he caused a huge scandal by A: using known prostitutes as models for the Virgin Mary in his paintings, and B: in The Madonna of Loreto, he showed the soles of the pilgrims dirty feet pointing directly at the viewer. The dirty feet thing was considered especially controversial and unaesthetic - one simply did not point dirty bare feet at the ne-plus-ultra of Roman society in their private commemorative chapel!

 

[warden]

Some say that the "art is in the idea." I guess that could be applied to Warhol.

You know, you just might be on to something there.

As for the rest of it, the "ugliness", and comparing Warhol to to pick-your-favorite popular artist from another era, well have at it because it's fun after all, and can't be proven right or wrong. There is no such thing as an artist that everyone likes unanimously and unreservedly.

I walked the Warhol museum on Saturday and came away from the experience better for it. He was a great artist that made beautiful things and I'm happy that I could work in the visit.

 

[Pieter12]

At least no one's discussing Jeff Koons (until now).

 

[Pieter12]

Or Richard Prince...

 

[Vaughn]

A modern-day torture I suffered -- only having one hour in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. It has been many years, I think I am over it.

 

[warden]

At least no one's discussing Jeff Koons (until now).

Now you did it.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I walked his retrospective in NYC several years back at the Whitney and it fit the definition of "blockbuster" to a T. Jeff Koons is not to my taste as an artist but I was there anyway so why not. The show was jaw dropping, especially the recently completed pile of PlayDough which had a supernatural reality to it despite being twelve feet high or whatever. And the army of artists and metal workers he employs have elevated craft to a level I've never seen. I don't know how they make those metallic balloons but holy cow they're amazing.

I don't want any of it, but what a great time.

 

[VinceInMT]

jawarden, I took a university class last semester in Visual Theory and Criticism and the textbook, “Why Is That Art?” by Terry Barrett, featured the Jeff Koons’ PlayDough piece on the cover.

What I learned from the class is that what is art and what is aesthetic is defined by the times, the critics, the philosophers, the artists, the collectors, the museums, the galleries, but rarely by the public. As soon as a piece is celebrated as a great work and defining of a “movement,” something else will come along to disrupt that. Examples of this abound, especially in the 20th-century, such as Dada morphing to Surrealism and paving the way to Abstract Expressionism.

 

[warden]

jawarden, I took a university class last semester in Visual Theory and Criticism and the textbook, “Why Is That Art?” by Terry Barrett, featured the Jeff Koons’ PlayDough piece on the cover.

What I learned from the class is that what is art and what is aesthetic is defined by the times, the critics, the philosophers, the artists, the collectors, the museums, the galleries, but rarely by the public. As soon as a piece is celebrated as a great work and defining of a “movement,” something else will come along to disrupt that. Examples of this abound, especially in the 20th-century, such as Dada morphing to Surrealism and paving the way to Abstract Expressionism.

I would definitely enjoy that class. My girlfriend is a university professor and teaches an art criticism class so we have a fine time together seeing a lot of art.

 

[DREW WILEY]

What, Flying Camera - you're not even giving Carravagio credit being an actual murderer, a fugitive for awhile, and depicting his own damnation in the corner of one of his paintings? But some of the great art patrons of that era were also infamous murderers, especially the Pope more commonly known by his family name of Borgia. And Carravagio could paint.
Someone once brought me a fake Carravagio to sleuth. I'm no expert on that topic, but even I could tell from clear across the room it was a fake. It indeed looked like a very very old painting, and had all the correct symbolism for a Carravagio; but the brush technique was, well, err... So I convinced the owner to allow me to photograph it with infrared film for a few hundred dollars, rather than going to an expert and potentially spending thousands for their split second condemnation of it. And sure enough, there was some underpainting which looked 1920's vintage. People, including me, make fun of all kinds of artists. Some people ask why so much money can be spent to obtain just a few squiggles by someone like Picasso. Part of the answer is that they have money to throw away to begin with, and I don't. But Picasso earned his credentials as an incredible draftsman first. He could do it all. But then I look at the glorified vandalism of Jean-Michel Basquiat, whom Warhol championed, which indeed, for sheer speed of production (assisted by terminal drug abuse), did contain a lot of interesting hue and shape relationships, but leaves me asking, could he do anything else to warrant such fame and prices, like actually draw anything else???? So frankly, they should take some of that obscene quantity of money and start sandblasting and repainting over all that illegal spray paint vandalism he put onto public and private property. ... Now, hopefully, somebody on this forum actually admires him, and I truly hope I have BBQ'd their sacred cow. But it really doesn't matter, because as long as there is art and pretentious art photography, there will always be an abundance of questionable examples of that, and we'll all have something to poke fun at.

 

[warden]

Now, hopefully, somebody on this forum actually admires him, and I truly hope I have BBQ'd their sacred cow.

You must be a joy at parties.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'd don't attend THOSE kinds of parties. Knew enough artistes who rotted out their liver with party fuel; now their brain cells seem to go up in smoke first.