What is the value of Art school?

[Vaughn]

The art world is a difficult one in which to make a living. Sure there are the super-stars whose work hauls in $$$, but they mostly burn out quickly. A lot of the high prices paid for art never goes to the artist. The gallery takes half, the artist in most cases gets zilch for resales if he or she is lucky enough to have made work that appreciates in value.....

That's why I got a day job that matched my needs as an artist. I have a gallery that take 50%. Still a lot better than 100% of nothing.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lots of galleries now ask 75% or more and expect you to pay for the framing. That's a deal-breaker in my opinion. But never once have I seen a framed art diploma in an actual exhibition. There are numerous public exhibits dedicated to showcasing someone's project resume - which is probably why those kinds of shows have an enormous "thud" to me. I judge things with my eyes first; and if a teacher or curator doesn't do the same, they get darn little respect from me. I'm not against words combined with pictures. But nothing makes me despise academic art careers more than fishing expeditions on paper, that is, non-photographic paper - empty pretentious "art-speak". A can of soup better have more to it than just a fancy label.

 

[alanrockwood]

... A can of soup better have more to it than just a fancy label.

Andy Warhol?

https://www.moma.org/learn/moma_learning/andy-warhol-campbells-soup-cans-1962/

 

[KenS]

You seem pretty angry and bitter about the whole experience...

It does make things a little difficult when your past 'practical experience' has provided more about the "how" and the "why" a good photograph is 'made'. "Theory' of the 'how and the why' us useless until you can 'apply' them.
my "Board Certification" (as a "Professional in an area of 'specialization (and I have the Board Certification "letters" to prove it.. (Do you really need a quickie photograph of my official Certificate as "Proof'?), I found that whole process' was a LOT more difficult than satisfying the needs of Profs who have more 'book learning' than practical experience/ability in the 'how to and the "why".. It was somewhat 'awkward' when fellow students came to me to get 'practical' assistance after the Prof indicated that they just had to "work a bit harder' to please him.

Ken

 

[DREW WILEY]

If anyone mentions Warhol again I'm going to barf. He had his time and place, but now he's just another migraine commodity all over the place, and I'm sick of hearing the same ole stuck record, and seeing the same ole soup cans, over and over and over and over again. I could mention a photographer or two I'm utterly sick of too, but will defer lest I step on someone's favorite stuck record.

 

[jtk]

I never met an art teacher who didn't bore me, with the exception of my aunt, who, despite her fame, did her best not to leverage me. Like I already hinted, I did enjoy certain Art History lectures. But I've always done far better at self-learning than any formal program, and realize that's not the case with everyone. I just find a lot of Art Academia to be highly pretentious. And I've had museum people poking fun at their own highbrow profession right at my own dinner table. Just another paycheck. That's why I avoided art as a formal career. I don't want anyone telling me what to do or how to do it. That would defeat the whole purpose.

Was your aunt "highbrow" or "lowbrow".

 

[DREW WILEY]

Neither. Common sense with zero patience for pretense. In other words, no art speak, even though she was on a first name basis with every major museum director on the East Coast. People who use veneers do so because they need a veneer. Everyone with green hair and a nose ring around here thinks they're an "artiste".

 

[warden]

If anyone mentions Warhol again I'm going to barf. He had his time and place, but now he's just another migraine commodity all over the place, and I'm sick of hearing the same ole stuck record, and seeing the same ole soup cans, over and over and over and over again. I could mention a photographer or two I'm utterly sick of too, but will defer lest I step on someone's favorite stuck record.

So barf.

I was fortunate to walk the Warhol retrospective last year and it was vast, and wonderful. A great way to spend an afternoon learning the history and seeing the art.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/...elebrity-portrait.html?searchResultPosition=3

This weekend I'll be in Pittsburgh, where I will make the time to visit the Warhol museum for the first time. I can't wait.

 

[removed account4]

Hi BradS --
I guess the moral of the story is that you will get out of it what you will want to get out of it
Unfortunately there really is no need for a Degree in "the arts" unless you want to go back to a structured setting
and be in that reservoir of school. It's a weird scene, and can leave you pulling your hair out when someone asks
you to do all sorts of stuff you think is absolutely nuts, but maybe its "nuts" just because for whatever reason you have an aversion to doing it
and you just don't want to "deal" .. IDK i thnk most of the time i don't like something or have an aversion to it, i just don't want to deal, maybe because
i am terrible at whatever it might be or it will lead to embarrassment .. i figured instead of doing things in my own unstructured environment
without much outside intervention i'd see what having external stimuli that might make me think outside my own box might do, and its been a eye
opening, fun and rewarding experience so far... regarding andy warhol, the guy was a genius in every respect of the word...

don't forget to have fun ! ( and keep hiking )
John

 

[warden]

My aunt had four phD's, taught Art History and technique at major universities, had her own work in major museums in both the US and Europe

What were her PhDs in? I'd like to see her work if you can share a link.

I never met an art teacher who didn't bore me, with the exception of my aunt, who, despite her fame, did her best not to leverage me.

That's sad. I've found "art teachers" to be interesting, interested, connected people that care about the development of their students as people and artists. I guess we hang in different circles.

I just find a lot of Art Academia to be highly pretentious.

That's why I avoided art as a formal career.

What did you do instead?

 

[DREW WILEY]

I became a buyer for an industrial distributor. Dovetailed well with my photography because I had continuous interaction with architects and high-end builders. I wore a lot of related hats: architectural photography, architectural color consultation, technical advice as well as sales. Some of these clients ended up purchasing my personal work and became valuable links to a flurry of exhibitions, while I still had the level of energy to juggle all of that. And although I worked very hard, I was never a starving artist, which certain now well-known photographers in the area were for quite awhile. That lifestyle was never for me. I found most art teachers to be clowns; certainly not all of them. Maybe that's because from a relatively early age I had far more serious influences who didn't need to pretend to be artists; but I still went my own way, stylistically and technique-wise. Frankly, I hate the whole term "art" in relation to photography. Any term which can connote potentially everything doesn't describe anything particularly well. Although my aunt was best known for her public murals under the WPA, and as the predominant teacher of fresco technique in the 20th C, I preferred her personal work. Mid-career she became a nun but continued to teach art history and technique, and to paint, and even designed a small cathedral. There are quite a few historic errors in the last book-form biography of her, but a brief web synopsis on her life is at muralist.org. You didn't want to get in an argument with her. She was one opinionated cookie when it came to how to look at things. I don't know what happened to the better website on her. She has more murals on the Natl Historic Register than any other American artist, maybe 200 of them. Ground all her own pigments. But my own work was unrelated, and nearly all her direct contacts in the art world had passed away by the time I got into gear.

 

[btaylor]

What were her PhDs in? I'd like to see her work if you can share a link.

That's sad. I've found "art teachers" to be interesting, interested, connected people that care about the development of their students as people and artists. I guess we hang in different circles.

What did you do instead?

Really jawarden? If you think this Buffalo is going to run out of chips...

 

[guangong]

With the disappearance of local camera shops, a class in photography may be a place to meet likeminded people. Those who must be "certified", art school Serves a different purpose, but for others there are a number of books and manuals on photography and other art processes (I am always amazed at the APUG threads that could be answered by a basic manual).
For most of the arts, the craft and technical aspects are no longer taught because teachers themselves are ignorant. For example, in oil painting, what colors can be safely put over another color and still be permanent. My wife and I registered for a life drawing course at local community college. Absolutely worthless for young people in class. Teacher had absolutely no ability in drawing from life. Of course, this is New Jersey and I suspect political connections override expertise.
For what it's worth, one of my dearest friends was the last student president of the Art Students League, which was once operated by students. Formal administration began in order to comply with GI Bill after WWII. Association with fellow students is probably where value of art school lies. And there are mery good works discussing what the photographer, painter, etcher, sculpture, etc should know. Genuine knack only comes with attentive practice and can not be taught. Otherwise, every student of every master would be a master.

 

[warden]

but a brief web synopsis on her life is at muralist.org.

I checked wiki and that site and both report one MFA rather than the four PhDs you mentioned which is an odd omission for such an incredible accomplishment! This thread is about arts education and its value - one MFA makes a lot of sense for an artist (just my opinion), while four PhDs makes little sense to me for a practicing artist like your aunt. That's why I was wondering what all those PhDs were about.

 

[mmerig]

. . . . .. I judge things with my eyes first; and if a teacher or curator doesn't do the same, they get darn little respect from me. I'm not against words combined with pictures. But nothing makes me despise academic art careers more than fishing expeditions on paper, that is, non-photographic paper - empty pretentious "art-speak". A can of soup better have more to it than just a fancy label.

This is quite an ironic statement from someone who never posts images and writes many opinions.

 

[DREW WILEY]

jwarden - it's a secondary site by one of her students. Ask the Smithsonian, the Tate, the Whitney, the MMA. Ask any serious fresco artist in the entire world. Those phD's were picked up as a hobby while she was teaching, a teaching role she already had due to her fame as a muralist. She was already teaching art history before her phD in it etc etc. Do you know what the WPA was? They didn't employ just anyone; only the best. She was at the peak of her fame in the 1930's and 40's, and was the first US woman artist to be collected by a major European museum. That made national headlines back in the Depression when good news was coveted. Every bit of this is documented, plenty of it still on view. The latest book is called Art with Spirit by Jennifer Thiele, about 200 pages of documentation. Even that gives just a small sampling. But she wasn't a photographer, I didn't hang onto her coattails to get my own connections, and I have zero interest in debating with web surfers who don't bother to do anything resembling real homework. I have no idea who put up that skimpy Wiki link, perhaps a younger cousin known for questionable content on other family-related sites.

 

[DREW WILEY]

mmerig - if and when I get around to posting images is utterly unrelated. The web is a miserable vehicle to represent things like color nuances, intricacies of tonality, etc. But it is apparently the common denominator standard of visual mediocrity these days. Bizarre for an "analog" forum. I'd hope that people would get out and look at serious prints a bit more.
It's pretty obvious many don't.

 

[warden]

jwarden - it's a secondary site by one of her students. Ask the Smithsonian, the Tate, the Whitney, the MMA. Ask any serious fresco artist in the entire world. Those phD's were picked up as a hobby while she was teaching, a teaching role she already had due to her fame as a muralist. She was already teaching art history before her phD in it etc etc. Do you know what the WPA was?

It seems I've struck a nerve. I'll take your word for it that your aunt had a collection of hobby PhDs. It really doesn't matter to me aside from the topic of this thread. Your question about the WPA is charming, thanks for that.

 

[Vaughn]

When people post images here, I pay more attention to the image composition than to the imaging-quality on the nuance-destroying computer screen. It is an unfortunate situation, but it does stress the photographers' skill in image-making rather than their PhotoShop efforts/skill in getting images into the net.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, I just lost my argument. It's apparent that a certain amount of educational familiarity with art history is indeed necessary for an intelligent conversation. But who needs that anymore? We've got Wicki Squeaks and Fauxtoshop just a click away, and now everyone thinks they know everything, and can do absolutely everything visually. Reminds me why I need to get out under a darkcloth as soon as possible and view the real world upside-down.

 

[warden]

When people post images here, I pay more attention to the image composition than to the imaging-quality on the nuance-destroying computer screen. It is an unfortunate situation, but it does stress the photographers' skill in image-making rather than their PhotoShop efforts/skill in getting images into the net.

I agree with that and the large format images that you share are an excellent example of how it can be done Vaughn. It's not about showing the last amount of tiny detail, it's about sharing what you're up to and what interests you as a photographer. I figure if sharing images online is good enough for major museums and artists then it's probably good enough for me too.

 

[tomkatf]

I would consider an art program to be valid and valuable path for the self-taught. It can also be a pleasant way to spend several years for those who just wish to be taught. I got a BS in Natural Resources Mgt, but worked for a couple decades or so for an Art Department at a CA State University where I ran the photo facilities for a photo program...about 125 to 150 students per semester in our photo classes. Programs can provide access to equipment and facilities difficult for an individual to have/maintain. And access to experienced photographers -- both in the form of advanced students and of visiting artists/teachers.

Colleges just provide the opportunity to learn -- how much a student learns and benefits from a program is tied directly to the amount of work they are willing to put in to it -- and a willingness to interact with the instructors and fellow students in a positive manner. It was easy for me to know which students were turned on by photography...they kept coming back to me for advice after sending them back into the darkroom to try it lighter/darker, more/less contrast...or asking them silly questions like "What do YOU want it to look like?" or "Why did you click the shutter?" The most fun part of the job.

I am a bit shy, so as a student, I did not pull as much out of my professors as I could have, though they were good enough teachers to make sure I got enough (Tom Knight and Thomas J. Cooper). Later as the lab tech, I made an effort to connect a little with the quieter students...I was around the darkroom more often the professors, and fortunately I enjoyed answering questions, demonstrating how to use equipment, and so forth. So make sure you use us!!!

I found the students who had the roughest time and usually ended up being the most disappointed were those who came into the program to have their image of themselves validated, rather than to learn.

Hi Vaughn,
I'd be surprised if we hadn't run into each other at HSU. I was in the photography program there from late '70 to mid '74. BA in 1972 and MA in 1974. Tom Knight was both my undergrad advisor and on my Master's committee with Bill Thonson. And I also was the lab tech there... summers, I think... I met Thomas Cooper a few times but I think he was just finishing up when I got into the Photo program... I actually shot a series of b/w "field" photos, influenced by his work. It was a great time to be there and I still think I did some of my most creative work there... before I had to begin to use a camera to make a living. ;-) Here's one you might like...

 

[DREW WILEY]

If THAT'S the basis - web surfing - by which museum collectors operate, understandable given their overloaded chores - no wonder the shows are getting so predictable. That would be a non-starter for me. Get at the back of that endless line and you're going nowhere. I always showed real prints. They took me seriously and politely looked at them. I once had a website -waste of time. I never sold a single print to a web surfer, despite hits from nearly every country in the world, or to a tourist - always to serious collectors who saw the actual prints in person. Remember that line of Hannibal Lector : One covets what one sees. Well, one covets very little of what appears on the web because one can't really distinguish much there. I'll set up another site one of these days. The old one was geared to old very slow web speeds. I already have a new deluxe copystand set up. But it's very low on my priority list.

 

[Vaughn]

Tom -- I was there starting in '72, but did not take photo classes until '77...graduated in '81. I was there when Cooper came back after his MFA to teach a few semesters before he headed off and started the photo program at Uni of Glasgow. Did you ever meet Harris?

Drew -- I believe Tom was referring to museum and gallery websites sharing images with the public. Hopefully they do not 'improve' the images with excessive saturation and sharpening.

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom -- I was there starting in '72, but did not take photo classes until '77...graduated in '81. I was there when Cooper came back after his MFA to teach a few semesters before he headed off and started the photo program at Uni of Glasgow. Did you ever meet Harris?

Drew -- I believe Tom was referring to museum and gallery websites sharing images with the public. Hopefully they do not 'improve' the images with excessive saturation and sharpening.

Name dropper

TJC is a very interesting photographer and his prints are amazing. I should have done a workshop with him 30 years ago.

Ian