What is the less dangerous print toner...

[marciofs]

...for the health?

 

[pentaxuser]

There are many print toners. Which one are you referring to?

pentaxuser

 

[Anon Ymous]

Hypo alum sepia toner must be the most benign. Apart from that, sepia toners based on sodium sulfide are a bit more dangerous, although good ventilation eliminates any problems. Those based on thiourea are considerably more dangerous. Selenium toners aren't benign either.

All of them are ok if handled appropriately.

 

[Rudeofus]

Anon Ymous brought up an interesting question: which danger is marciofs most concerned about? Is it the toxicity of the process liquids? Or is it toxic fumes emanating from these liquids? Is it maybe storage of hazardous precursor materials? Is it safe disposal of waste chems? Depending on to which extent you can address either of these hazards, there will be very different answers.

To give you an example: in terms of process liquids and storage,hypo alum toner is very benign, but not everyone is capable of safely operating a heated bath at 50°C/120°F in their darkroom (think electrical hazards, failed temperature control leading to fire hazards and toxic smoke, ...). Depending on circumstances hypo alum toner may be the most benign, or the most hazardous toner to use.

 

[marciofs]

Anon Ymous brought up an interesting question: which danger is marciofs most concerned about? Is it the toxicity of the process liquids? Or is it toxic fumes emanating from these liquids? Is it maybe storage of hazardous precursor materials? Is it safe disposal of waste chems? Depending on to which extent you can address either of these hazards, there will be very different answers.

To give you an example: in terms of process liquids and storage,hypo alum toner is very benign, but not everyone is capable of safely operating a heated bath at 50°C/120°F in their darkroom (think electrical hazards, failed temperature control leading to fire hazards and toxic smoke, ...). Depending on circumstances hypo alum toner may be the most benign, or the most hazardous toner to use.

I don't know eather.
I guess there is no answer for what I am looking for. Something safer on every aspect.

 

[jim appleyard]

I would think iron blue toner would be safe, but IDK how archival it is. This is assuming a "standard" method of toning using one of the commercial brands?

You can also tone prints in food coloring, coffee, tea, etc.

 

[marciofs]

I would think iron blue toner would be safe, but IDK how archival it is. This is assuming a "standard" method of toning using one of the commercial brands?

You can also tone prints in food coloring, coffee, tea, etc.

Any method is welcome as far they are not dificult to do and as far they are archival.

 

[Sirius Glass]

It would depend on whether or not you drink the toners or work in an ventilated area.

 

[MattKing]

Take a look at Berg Brown toner.

I don't know that it assists with archival results though.

 

[RobC]

Is a road dangerous? Depends how you handle it.
Is a knife dangerous? Depends how you handle it.
Is a gun dangerous? Depends how you handle it.
Is a toner dangerous? Depends how you handle it.

All things under human control are not dangerous until humans make them so.

Are you the human that makes them so?

 

[removed account4]

in additon tea and coffee ... reed dye

 

[Jesper]

Tea?

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well... there's somewhat caustic, very caustic and extremely caustic. The OP is asking for advice on what's the least caustic. I'd rather not handle things like tetraethyllead or cyanide even if I use extreme care. But I'm okay with Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner.

 

[RobC]

Tea?

Tea, the stuff you drink.

And watercolour paints can be used to tone prints. Just dissolve some in water and put your print in. You can use any colour you like and make it as strong or weak as you like to taste.

http://www.peerlesscolor.com/products.html

 

[bdial]

I forgot about things like tea and coffee prior to John's post. If you want something that's pretty much utterly not dangerous, they would be good candidates. But both color the paper more than the silver, a true toner causes a chemical change in the silver. Some toners, for example selenium, improve the archival properties because they convert the silver to more stable compounds.

None of it is safe if you drink it (some would include the tea and coffee in that statement), but many toners are not extraordinarily dangerous. Much depends on the specifics of what you want to achieve, as with many things there are trade-offs to be made.

 

[pentaxuser]

Hypo alum sepia toner must be the most benign. Apart from that, sepia toners based on sodium sulfide are a bit more dangerous, although good ventilation eliminates any problems. Those based on thiourea are considerably more dangerous.
All of them are ok if handled appropriately.

Interesting. In what ways specifically are those based on thiourea more dangerous than sodium sulfide. I had always thought that Tim Rudman, an expert on toners had said that thiourea was easier on the lungs and overall less dangerous than sulfide toners

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Thiourea is listed as a possible carcinogen. Years ago it replaced hydrogen sulfide generators for use in qualitative analysis. It was considered more esthetically pleasing than hydrogen sulfide in the lab.

As with all chemicals don't eat it. Those chemicals that are poisonous by inhalation or skin contact are potentially more dangerous since accidental contact is greater.

When working with sodium sulfide toners it is best to use them in a well ventilated area. Avoid any contact with even weak acids as this liberates hydrogen sulfide. Hydrogen sulfide is very poisonous. The first symptoms are headache and mental confusion. Toxic levels also dull the sense of smell leading the victim to believe that the concentration of the gas is less than it actually is.

Solutions of sodium sulfite or polysulfide are caustic and can lead to skin irritation. The use of gloves is recommended.

 

[nworth]

Most toners are not terribly toxic, unless you drink them. But they are a bit more toxic than most other darkroom chemicals. I agree that hypo alum sepia toner may be the most benign, but it does emit sulfur dioxide fumes (a little bit). These are not as dangerous as the hydrogen sulfide that comes off sulfide sepia toners, but you really should have good ventilation for any darkroom work. Thiourea sepia toners are certainly safer than sulfide toners, even with the carcinogen warning. Thiourea does not seem to be an even moderately strong carcinogen, and experience (and epidemiology) say that it is safe to use in photography with the ordinary precautions we use. Gold toners seem pretty safe. Iron blue toners are also pretty benign, with the worst component being ferricyanide, which we also use for a lot of things. Copper toners are similar to iron blue toners but also contain copper 2+ ions, which are a heavy metal poison. They are not poisonous enough to worry about in the concentrations we use (a lot less than we use in the garden). The traditional brown toner (polysulfide toner) emits hydrogen sulfide like sepia toner. You need good ventilation to use it. Selenium toner is similar in may ways to sepia toner. If you make it acid, it gives off both hydrogen sulfide and hydrogen selenide - very nasty stuff. But the way we use selenium toner, this is almost never an issue.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Two interesting points about selenium. Selenium is toxic in large amounts. However it is also an essential trace mineral in the human diet necessary for proper cell function. It can be found in many vitamin and mineral supplements. When taken in large amounts it is excreted in the breath and sweat as obnoxious smelling dimethyl selenide. The smell is described by some as that of rotting horseradish.


In the early part of the last century tellurium, a chemical cousin of selenium, was also used as a toner. Its toxicity is similar to that of selenium. However the organo-tellurium compounds produced in the body are far worse smelling than those of selenium. Miners who worked silver or gold mines often developed tellurium breath. This was said to wilt daisies and stupefy small animals at 50 paces.

 

[Rudeofus]

Looking at the toner bath and its chemistry alone is not necessarily telling when it comes to hazards. While Sodium Sulfide will peacefully sit on a shelf for years, it will unleash its fully nastiness if it ever comes in contact with even moderate acids. Simple mixing errors can turn into nightmares. These acids may be waiting in your hazardous waste collection tank (acidic fixer plus stop bath), or come from leaked residues somewhere.

You basically have two distinct options to be moderately safe:

1. Either fully understand the chemistry of your process liquids, try to also understand the implications if you mix one or more of them. There are many many lists of incompatible chemicals out there, read them and try to understand what they mean.
2. Or: trust that people who make toner kits know their chemistry well. Use toners from premade packages and follow their instructions to the letter. Discard left overs in separate containers and bring them to hazardous material disposal sites in a timely fashion.

 

[miha]

Two interesting points about selenium. Selenium is toxic in large amounts. However it is also an essential trace mineral in the human diet necessary for proper cell function. It can be found in many vitamin and mineral supplements. When taken in large amounts it is excreted in the breath and sweat as obnoxious smelling dimethyl selenide. The smell is described by some as that of rotting horseradish.


In the early part of the last century tellurium, a chemical cousin of selenium, was also used as a toner. Its toxicity is similar to that of selenium. However the organo-tellurium compounds produced in the body are far worse smelling than those of selenium. Miners who worked silver or gold mines often developed tellurium breath. This was said to wilt daisies and stupefy small animals at 50 paces.

What is LD50 oral for selenium toner either stock or 1:10 diluted? The concentration of sodium selenite listed is usually 1-5%

 

[Gerald C Koch]

What is LD50 oral for selenium toner either stock or 1:10 diluted? The concentration of sodium selenite listed is usually 1-5%

My post principally concerned elemental selenium and not selenium compounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Selenium-HealthProfessional/

However the LD50 that I found was for rats 7 mg per kg of body weight. Sodium selenite is readily absorbed through the skin.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Back in the early 1990's I worked at Reese AFB (now defunct, thanks to BRAC). They wanted large prints of both historic and (then) current examples of things on the base to display side-by-side. I was tasked with copying the black-and-white images and another person was tasked with the color photos. The latter job was far easier since we had no color printing capabilities so color printing was outsourced. I used all the skills I had to copy old photos and halftone images to make the finest all-analog, sepia-toned 16x20 prints I could produce. The largest trays we had were 16x20. Since Kodak Sepia Toner was very stinky, I brought the prints home and toned them on my own time in my back yard. The gloves made handling the prints so slippery I couldn't pick them up and tongs scratched the delicate emulsion. So I used my bare hands. After hours of bleaching and toning 2 or 3 dozen large prints, my hands swelled up like balloons and in the next several days they hurt and were very dry.

If you're wondering why I was so uncareful... it's partly due to ignorance, partly because I had to do the job to support my family, and partly because I was told to do it.

I sometimes wonder if overexposure to certain chemicals is why I contracted a neurological illness.

I guess I'm a bit pissed also because everyone was so impressed with the color images, while the black-and-white prints were "just copies". Ha ha!!

The bottom line is... do your research and be extremely careful... no matter what the boss threatens you with.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Hypo alum sepia toner must be the most benign. Apart from that, sepia toners based on sodium sulfide are a bit more dangerous, although good ventilation eliminates any problems. Those based on thiourea are considerably more dangerous. Selenium toners aren't benign either.

All of them are ok if handled appropriately.

Interesting. In what ways specifically are those based on thiourea more dangerous than sodium sulfide. I had always thought that Tim Rudman, an expert on toners had said that thiourea was easier on the lungs and overall less dangerous than sulfide toners

Thanks

pentaxuser

Hi...

Before saying anything else, i'd like to point out that all of the aforementioned toners are safe, when handled responsibly, as I said before. IMHO, it doesn't take much thought to realise that dipping your fingers in any of the photograhic chemicals isn't what we'd call best practice. Common sense would dictate that the use of tongs and/or (nitrile) gloves is mandatory.

So, on one hand we have a toner based on a possible carcinogen and on the other hand a toner that gives off hydrogen sulfide gas. Yes, it's not healthy at all, but you definitely don't have to use the toning solution indoors, nor in the darkness. I do the bleaching indoors and always put the toning tray out in the balcony, a by definition very well ventilated area. It also takes only few seconds to tone the print, you don't have to stay over the tray for ages and sniff.

Finally, by the same token, breaking wind may also be very, very dangerous, as hydrogen sulfide is one of the smelly components in flatus.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Finally, by the same token, breaking wind may also be very, very dangerous, as hydrogen sulfide is one of the smelly components in flatus.

Indeed, in the previous century quite a few sewer workers were overcome and died from "sewer gas."