What is the current state and future of film availability especially 35mm?

[Agulliver]

"I don't use this instax stuff" does not mean it is unimportant or irrelevant to our specific interests in film photography.

 

[rcphoto]

Instant film is not going to make roll film sustainable. Totally different crowd buys this stuff.

What crowd is that? I usually have either a polaroid 600 or an instax camera along with my Nettar as my daily carry.

 

[Pieter12]

What crowd is that? I usually have either a polaroid 600 or an instax camera along with my Nettar as my daily carry.

I guess not your crowd. I never use any instant photo stuff myself.

 

[Agulliver]

I have a Polaroid 600. Not a daily driver but it gets used. Instax is probably what's keeping Fuji's coating line busy. Like it or not, use it or not, it's film. I've no use for sheet film but I'm always glad to see it's still around.

 

[Film-Niko]

I take my job and the photo program that I teach, very seriously. It does help to have a principal that is supportive of art and my department (the one before sucked, and the program dwindled under previous teacher, sadly...Happily she left when I took over and the new guy came!) He always says to me, Andy, whatever you need! That even includes repairs on the K1000's (average about 6 each year). He even had the glass in our UV burner replaced after a twit caretaker smashed it and said nothing about it! Not an easy feat as it had to make allowances for a vacuum hose.
Ideally, you want the kids to have all the same cameras. If a class consists of many different types, it makes teaching difficult. When young teachers take over photo programs that have a healthy analogue component, you can probably kiss it goodbye (I'm the only one with a healthy program, sadly). That is why I am currently grooming a young teacher, who wants to keep it alive. I can imagine a teacher wanting to start a film/analogue course from scratch will find it daunting, and a battle with an unsupportive admin. In situations like that, the teacher...if determined...will do it on their own. How do you think I got the Alt. component off the ground? I started that bit when that witch of a principal was at the helm but managed to do it. I won in the end.
Rant over.
PS I have people donating cameras to us all the time. I am keeping the ones that still work, in storage, just in case...

Thanks for describing your situation in Canada. Much appreciated.

A friend of mine is also offering courses at schools. He told me for his work cameras are no problem at all. He said
- either the students already have cameras from home (family), or partly already have bought one by themselves because of interest
- if that isn't the case he gives recommendations for reliable sources (camera shops / repair shops)
- but if one just want to make the course first, see if he / she likes film photography, and then decide whether to buy a film camera or not, he has six Nikon FM (very solid and reliable) which are used for the courses.

Back to original topic:
Friends in Japan told me in the last years that the film revival over there is slower than in the rest of the world.
Maybe that is changing now and the development is accelerating:

The Emotion and Experience of Analog Is Creating a New Generation of Film Photographers

New and used film cameras are selling very well.

petapixel.com

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks for describing your situation in Canada. Much appreciated.

A friend of mine is also offering courses at schools. He told me for his work cameras are no problem at all. He said
- either the students already have cameras from home (family), or partly already have bought one by themselves because of interest
- if that isn't the case he gives recommendations for reliable sources (camera shops / repair shops)
- but if one just want to make the course first, see if he / she likes film photography, and then decide whether to buy a film camera or not, he has six Nikon FM (very solid and reliable) which are used for the courses.

Back to original topic:
Friends in Japan told me in the last years that the film revival over there is slower than in the rest of the world.
Maybe that is changing now and the development is accelerating:

The Emotion and Experience of Analog Is Creating a New Generation of Film Photographers

New and used film cameras are selling very well.

petapixel.com

That is very true. When I was there Summer 2023, there was barely any film on the shelves...actually, empty boxes of film (to keep theft down). Zero sheet film. I'm planning to spend several months out of the year there, and it looks like keeping the films I love with me, will be a challenge. I'll be there next April. I hope the situation has improved by then. @mooseontheloose (Rachelle) who lives in Kyoto, can shed some light on this.

 

[Film-Niko]

That is very true. When I was there Summer 2023, there was barely any film on the shelves...actually, empty boxes of film (to keep theft down). Zero sheet film. I'm planning to spend several months out of the year there, and it looks like keeping the films I love with me, will be a challenge. I'll be there next April. I hope the situation has improved by then. Maybe @Rachelle, who lives in Kyoto, can shed some light on this.

So your impression last year was that the demand is so high that the shops cannot get enough supply to satisfy the demand of the customers?
Have I understand that right?

 

[MattKing]

That is very true. When I was there Summer 2023, there was barely any film on the shelves...actually, empty boxes of film (to keep theft down). Zero sheet film. I'm planning to spend several months out of the year there, and it looks like keeping the films I love with me, will be a challenge. I'll be there next April. I hope the situation has improved by then. Maybe @mooseontheloose , (Rachelle) who lives in Kyoto, can shed some light on this.

Edited reference - different Rachelle, I believe @Andrew O'Neill !

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Edited reference - different Rachelle, I believe @Andrew O'Neill !

Thanks!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

So your impression last year was that the demand is so high that the shops cannot get enough supply to satisfy the demand of the customers?
Have I understand that right?

From what I could gather, so so demand.

 

[Paul Howell]

Where did you read about Acros II issues? All major suppliers in USA have it. Glazers Camera in Seattle had an impressive amount in their freezer.

The issue is that a partnership between Fuji and Harman there is more risk that one or the other will decide that it is in their best interest to continue. Fuji can resume coating in Japan, we just don't know what the future is. It is much more certain that Eastman Kodak will be making Tmax 100 and 400 and Harman making Delta 100 and 400.

 

[Agulliver]

There are no issues with ACROS II. Currently Harman are certainly involved, we don't actually know where the material is coated and how much of the work Harman do. There will be a contract between FujiFilm and Harman Technology, and neither party will have any interest in breaking that. When the contract comes to an end, decisions will have to be made. But that doesn't mean there are any "issues" or that Harman or Fuji is in any trouble.

AS for demand in film, it has already been established that by 2019 Kodak had a backlog of some 30 million 35mm cassettes of consumer colour film due to an unexpected surge in interest in film photography. They experienced this going into the pandemic in 2020 which only caused further problems. It is only recently, really in early 2024, that the backlog has been corrected by Kodak investing (including hiring more staff) to increase production and in particular the confectioning stage of film production.

From 2018-2024 it was often difficult for shops to get sufficient supplies especially of C41 consumer films such as Color Plus, Gold and Ultramax. Supplies simply weren't there because demand had skyrocketed and continued to do so during the pandemic.

What is a little unclear now is whether that demand has levelled off or if it continues to rise.

 

[koraks]

The fate of Fuji Arcos is uncertain

The fate of my spouse is uncertain; I don't know if she'll come back from her dance practice tonight. The fate of the world at large is uncertain; for all we know it'll be devoured tomorrow by a rogue rock hurling at us from outer space at almost the speed of light. But I'm going to bank on hearing my wife insert the key in the front door right around the time I'd like to go to bed, and the sun rising tomorrow morning just like it did today.

There's no particular reason at this point to wonder about the 'fate' of Acros. There's no indication whatsoever, anywhere, that it's specifically at risk of being axed.

 

[MattKing]

The fate of my spouse is uncertain; I don't know if she'll come back from her dance practice tonight. The fate of the world at large is uncertain; for all we know it'll be devoured tomorrow by a rogue rock hurling at us from outer space at almost the speed of light. But I'm going to bank on hearing my wife insert the key in the front door right around the time I'd like to go to bed, and the sun rising tomorrow morning just like it did today.

There's no particular reason at this point to wonder about the 'fate' of Acros. There's no indication whatsoever, anywhere, that it's specifically at risk of being axed.

@koraks
Moderator hat on:
Careful - we could force you to move this post to its own thread in the Ethics and Philosophy sub-forum!
Hat is off now

 

[koraks]

No worries, I'll happily allow myself to be carted over to yonder corner!

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

I have been away from photography for 5 years, now I have the opportunity to get back into it. Is 35mm film supply keeping up with demand? What about 120? how does the future look? What about chemistry? Still available and going to be available for reasonable money?

I can vouch for Bellini Foto regarding chemistry.
They have, imho, the most complete set of chemistry around, C41, E6, ECN, b&w reversal, some great developers like d96, sistan like wetting agent, restrainers, plus a complete set of raw chemistry.

Bellini Foto - Prodotti per la Fotografia

Bellini Foto opera nel campo della chimica fotografica dal 1988 ed è l’unica azienda a realizzare prodotti chimici per uso fotografico e cinematografico di qualità esclusivamente Made in Italy

www.bellinifoto.it

 

[GaryFlorida]

I like the light table hes looking at negatives with

 

[DanyB]

Film is awesome but the price is still increasing like crazy. We know this is photography not for all but damn is becoming very expansive… color 8x10 I would say impossible!

 

[brbo]

Film is awesome but the price is still increasing like crazy.

I don't know whether this is still true. We went through a period of price increases, yes, but I think we've reached a point where further price increases would not benefit manufacturers/retailers.

You'll see that there is no problem on the supply side anymore which combined with moderate increase in demand drowe prices up in the past.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

I don't know whether this is still true. We went through a period of price increases, yes, but I think we've reached a point where further price increases would not benefit manufacturers/retailers.

You'll see that there is no problem on the supply side anymore which combined with moderate increase in demand drowe prices up in the past.

It's still increasing. A roll of Ektachrome is now 30€.
Out of market prices.

 

[brbo]

It's still increasing. A roll of Ektachrome is now 30€.

It's been at about 28-29EUR for a while now (at least half a year).

But, yeah, lets check back in 2025 and see if the price is 35 EUR. I'd bet against it.

In the meantime, buy respooled Kodak 5294 for 20 EUR. You are helping the manufacturer of the film (EK) and sending a message to Alaris at the same time...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Dany - There are still people with plenty of money who have no problem buying significant quantities of 8x10 color film for this or that project. The bigger problem is that their favorite type might not be available when they need it. The supply has a feast versus famine cycle. 4X5 is much easier to get, but 5x7 requires group pool orders for a custom cut by Kodak. There are several labs right here in California which routinely process both 8X10 E-6 chrome films and 8x10 C41 color neg films; one of them is only a 15 minute drive away from me, unless rush hour traffic is involved.

Plenty of choices in 8x10 black and white film are ordinarily available, with just a few spot outages from time to time. But I'm glad that I stocked my freezer with a decent supply of both my favorite color and b&w 8x10 films back when those cost about a fourth as much as now. In other words, price-wise, 4x5 is the new 8X10. I also shoot a lot more 120 format than I used to (6X9, 6X7), and that helps with overall film expense. 35mm is just too small for my own personal needs; but I sometimes pull out the Nikon just for fun or scene scouting purposes.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

There's far less choice than 20 years ago. But more choice than 5 years ago.

5 years ago we had Fujifilm Pro 160NS, Pro 400H, Fuji Industrial 100, C200, Superia 400, Superia Premium 400. Now they are all gone. Acros II is reintroduced

Kodak had ColorPlus, Gold (135), Uktramax, Portra 160/400/800, Ektar en Gold

Summarised, at the big companies Acros came back and Gold was introduced in 120. That does not outweigh the loss of all the Fuji stuff.

Yeah some smaller companies came with some not perfect products and there might be even more rebrands if Vision3 stuff and Agfa Aviphot than 5 years ago, but i prefer unique and high quality stuff.

 

[Agulliver]

Kodak also reintroduced TMZ and Ektachrome. Foma have introduced Ortho 400, Ilford Ortho 80, Kentmere 100 and 400 in 120 and Harman Phoenix. Film Ferrania have brought P30 and P33. Adox have brought in new films too.

Agfa Aviphot and Kodak Vision 3 are "high quality stuff" though some of the rebranders are dubious in their marketing. But the small players such as FIlm Ferrania and Adox do add to genuine choice. Compared to 20 years ago, things look pretty poor. Compared to 5 or so years ago, we're doing far better than expected.

 

[Henning Serger]

Instant film is not going to make roll film sustainable.

That is not correct as a general statement.
There are several 35mm and roll film types (and even sheet film) from different brands which can only be offered to the market because of the sustainable production infrastructure of the instant film production.
Instant film (the negative and positive film which is needed for current integral instant film of Fujifilm instax and Polaroid) is coated on the same coating machines as standard film for 35mm, 120 and sheet film formats.
There are two factories coating instant film: Fujifilm's main big film factory in Tokyo, and the Polaroid Film GmbH factory in Monheim, Germany (I know that one from the inside, got a very detailed factory tour).

Instant film has become the most popular, most widespread film product on the market. It is meanwhile the biggest film type market, bigger than the market for photo film of formats 135, 120 and LF sheets.
Fujifilm alone is producing more instant film than Kodak's, Harman technology's, Foma's, Agfa-Gevaert's, Film Ferrania's, ADOX' photo film output combined. And Polaroid is also producing several million instant film packs p.a. in addition to that.

BW and colour photo films (in formats of 135, 120, sheets) of at least six (!) different brands are in the end dependent on instant film production. Because the instant film production keeps the coating lines running. Without that massive base these photo films cannot be produced.
Therefore even pure standard photo film format users (135, 120, sheets) should be glad and thankful that the very successful film product instant film exists. The whole film market is benefitting from that.

And 120 and LF photographers should be very thankful that 35mm exists in its popularity: The demand for 35mm keeps the lines of Kodak, Harman technology, Foma, Film Ferrania etc. running, as it is by far the most popular and demanded standard film product. That is the higher volume market which provides the sustainability. 120 and especially sheet film are niches compared to 35mm. Without 35mm, no bigger formats. Period.
And Kodak BW film users should be thankful for the Kodak colour film production, as colour film is the mass volume product, and BW the niche which can only exist because of the much much bigger colour film production base.

Best regards,
Henning