What is "Fine Art"?

faberryman · Apr 18, 2022

jnania said:
It doesn't really matter if it was last week, 2 years ago or 100 years ago, if somebody is going to retail your work they need to know what you were thinking and why you made the photographs so they can express these things to the potential buyer. you'd have to be able to say more than "I like puppies" even if they were all photographs of puppies.

I was in New York around Christmas 1979, and, in addition to visiting museums and galleries, I went to this, for lack of a better word, store that sold original photographs, photographic books, museum and gallery posters of photographic exhibits, and the like. They had an original Moonrise Hernandez which as I recall was around $1800. Well, I liked it a lot and was thinking about buying it, but since it represented 9-12 months rent, and I really didn't have the money, I reluctantly left with an Ansel Adams exhibit poster with his photograph of a hard boiled egg slicer, and a Dorothea Lange exhibit poster of Migrant Mother as consolation prizes. I knew the story behind Migrant Mother so I really didn't need anyone to explain that to me. There were a couple of Ansel Adams posters to chose from, but I liked his photograph of a hard boiled egg slicer best. I still have no idea why he took a photograph of it or what it means. It looks pretty much like a hard boiled egg slicer to me. The poster is in my darkroom, and it serves as a continual source of inspiration. So if anyone knows what it means, for God's sake don't tell me and ruin it.

Sirius Glass · Apr 18, 2022

faberryman said:
I was in New York around Christmas 1979, and, in addition to visiting museums and galleries, I went to this, for lack of a better word, store that sold original photographs, photographic books, museum and gallery posters of photographic exhibits, and the like. They had an original Moonrise Hernandez which as I recall was around $1800. Well, I liked it a lot and was thinking about buying it, but since it represented 9-12 months rent, and I really didn't have the money, I reluctantly left with an Ansel Adams exhibit poster with his photograph of a hard boiled egg slicer, and a Dorothea Lange exhibit poster of Migrant Mother as consolation prizes. I knew the story behind Migrant Mother so I really didn't need anyone to explain that to me. There were a couple of Ansel Adams posters to chose from, but I liked his photograph of a hard boiled egg slicer best. I still have no idea why he took a photograph of it or what it means. It looks pretty much like a hard boiled egg slicer to me. The poster is in my darkroom, and it serves as a continual source of inspiration. So if anyone knows what it means, for God's sake don't tell me and ruin it.

We could get into a detailed discussion about the egg slicer, generic egg slicers, eggnosium, but not to slice to topic too thin, ... I really do not want to egg you on anymore. Egg static this post is over.

Craig75 · Apr 18, 2022

jnania said:
sadly whomever it is that TFC is talking to I can't see, but to quote a guy who bought a run down bungalow / house about 3/4 a mile down the road from me to flip in the early 2000s ( after he mowed the lawn and planted some flowers ), and he ran through a different realtor every 2weeks for 4 or 5 years, and eventually took a bath in his losses. I spoke to him on the phone once and he told me "there are realtors and there are realtors" ... Maybe TFC is referring to "fine art" that is sold in fancy galleries where the gallerists and their staff have certain expectations to be met in order for one to be audiences by the staff, very much like what stock agencies used to do by submitting like 4000 chromes before they would even consider talking to you. Like Renato said it is what it is... It doesn't really matter if it was last week, 2 years ago or 100 years ago, if somebody is going to retail your work they need to know what you were thinking and why you made the photographs so they can express these things to the potential buyer. they'd have to be able to say more than "he likes puppies" even if they were all photographs of puppies.

and besides. if someone says someone isn't making "art" that's their opinion, isn't it ? there are people who don't believe for 1 second Ansel Adams was making art, or someone like gary Winograd, and others who believe that's all they were creating. and never mind people like Rothko someone said in a thread here last fall that he was a hack kind of like saying they were making crap a 1st grader could make ... it's just option... trash treasure and all that.

Hardly constructive for members to be the art police on a forum of photographers though.

We may as well have a trip into the mindgarden and see how one can be so certain it is not art.

I agree it's just an opinion amongst the powerless but it becomes a statement of fact when backed up by institutions, universities, and money.

VinceInMT · Apr 18, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
People who write and use an artists statement want the world to believe that one can not do art without one….

Nice way to generalize.

Sirius Glass · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
Nice way to generalize.

How about:

Those who cannot write or spell major in engineering, math or science.
Those who can write, spell, and have original thoughts go into the humanities, history, philosophy.
Those who can write, spell, and do not have original thoughts or are incapable of original thoughts become journalists.

Is that the kind of generalization you were looking for?

Arthurwg · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
I was just about to write the same thing. It describes the project which is usually a series of individual works that are on some common theme.

I just had my senior show and I provided an “exhibition statement” that put the work in a context that many viewers might not pick up. It allowed me to explain the personal nature of the work and what inspired it.

BTW, it was all abstract done by drawing, painting, mosaic, with one tradition photograph and a couple drawings with embedded cyanotypes. Without the statement someone might say “What’s with all the circles?”

In fact, during my oral defense, one of the faculty said that since the circle represents the female and the square represented the male, she saw two of my works, concentric circles in a square frame, as some kind of male domination of women. I told her that my work is primarily about form and I am influenced by the early Modernists who saw the circle as the perfect form and I certainly didn’t see it that way nor was that my intention. She wasn’t convinced that I wasn’t up to something. Sigh…….That’s OK, I am still graduating Summa Cum Laude.

That's funny. So strange what people, even professionals, read into a work. I think it's the times we live in.

VinceInMT · Apr 18, 2022

Craig75 said:
Hardly constructive for members to be the art police on a forum of photographers though.

I don’t understand why an artist statement has to be controversial unless it’s just a feature of social media for some people to tell other people that whatever they are doing it’s wrong.

I am retired. I wanted to learn about the world of art to expand my understanding and, perhaps, improve my own work, not to mention to challenge my mind, something I am told we should all do as we age (I’m turning 70 next month.) To accomplish this I enrolled in a BFA program. As a Vietnam Era vet I get a tuition waiver so why not? As part of every studio class an artist statement is required for each critique. It’s sort of like how a couple research papers are required in each art history class. This is simply the way it is.

Craig75 · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
I don’t understand why an artist statement has to be controversial unless it’s just a feature of social media for some people to tell other people that whatever they are doing it’s wrong.

I am retired. I wanted to learn about the world of art to expand my understanding and, perhaps, improve my own work, not to mention to challenge my mind, something I am told we should all do as we age (I’m turning 70 next month.) To accomplish this I enrolled in a BFA program. As a Vietnam Era vet I get a tuition waiver so why not? As part of every studio class an artist statement is required for each critique. It’s sort of like how a couple research papers are required in each art history class. This is simply the way it is.

Hi Vince,

that was in reference to something else not art statements.

C.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

jnania said:
have you ever gone to a gallery opening and talked to a photographer or the gallerists who represents them? the statement is a jumping off point / 30 second elevator pitch to talk about what the images are about and why they were made. if you had a series of 20 of your best images that were part of a series would you be able to write a paragraph about what the images are, and why you took them, other than "I'm interested in this stuff so I took these photographs". that's the point of an artist statement.. might sound pretentious to some but for others it's the reason why and gives insights.

That's what I said. The artist has to have a statement to get a sale. Of course, in the case of Vivien Meier, she was dead when her photos became famous. So the curators talk about her personal life, her mental state, etc. to build up the hoopla about her to raise interest in her work and raise prices even though it's good enough to stand on its own.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
I don’t understand why an artist statement has to be controversial unless it’s just a feature of social media for some people to tell other people that whatever they are doing it’s wrong.

I am retired. I wanted to learn about the world of art to expand my understanding and, perhaps, improve my own work, not to mention to challenge my mind, something I am told we should all do as we age (I’m turning 70 next month.) To accomplish this I enrolled in a BFA program. As a Vietnam Era vet I get a tuition waiver so why not? As part of every studio class an artist statement is required for each critique. It’s sort of like how a couple research papers are required in each art history class. This is simply the way it is.

I'm a Viet Vet too. How does the tuition waiver work and how much?

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

Here are two tiny prints of the Brooklyn Bridge photographed by Walker Evans, I saw them on display in the Getty Museum in LA. The description card adjacent to the photos was obviously not written by him but by the museum's curator. Frankly, I doubt Evans ever thought that's what his pictures meant.

Frankly, most statements and cards like this one are made up by curators who try to create interest to create more meaning than the picture really shows. Evans was probably walking across the bridge and took a couple of shots just like millions of others have done throughout the years. There's nothing special about these photos other than they were taken by Walker Evans.

Two photos and statement card in the picture below. (The picture on the right is about two inches square.)

DREW WILEY · Apr 18, 2022

Fine Art is what we forum types pontificate about on boring rainy days when we have nothing better to do. Well, it's not raining yet, and when it is forecast tonite, I'll probably be asleep anyway, thank goodness.

"Artist Statements" are an outgrowth of those corny old "Mission Statement" posters in the entry hallways of businesses and corporations in the 80's, invented so that otherwise worthless Marketing MBA's had something to do on boring rainy days.

Sirius Glass · Apr 18, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Fine Art is what we forum types pontificate about on boring rainy days when we have nothing better to do. Well, it's not raining yet, and when it is forecast tonite, I'll probably be asleep anyway, thank goodness.

"Artist Statements" are an outgrowth of those corny old "Mission Statement" posters in the entry hallways of businesses and corporations in the 80's, invented so that otherwise worthless Marketing MBA's had something to do on boring rainy days.

That is a nice summary about the senseless blather that mission statements and artist statements so well encompasses. The statements are good for mulching fields and gardens but not much else.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

The Artist Statements are like the Mission Statements: To Increase Profits.

MattKing · Apr 18, 2022

It is true that a properly prepared and used Artist Statement will increase your likelihood of getting agent's representation for your work, increase your opportunities to present your work to galleries and curators for consideration, and increase the likelihood that those galleries and curators will consider showing your work or even consider buying your work for their permanent collections, so I guess it is true that they are necessary if you want to make a profit.
I'm a member of two different amateur groups who make photographs and put together shows. Convincing curators and galleries to devote their wall space to our shows is a challenging process, because there is a lot of competition. Between the two groups, I've been in a good number of shows. We wouldn't even have been able to get into the doors to try to make our case if we didn't have good quality written material to support our presentation - the curators and gallerists won't even look at the photos without it.

DREW WILEY · Apr 18, 2022

My "mission statement" was always my own prints. If some alleged agent expected something else, he was scratched off my list, not me off his! Same went for curators - weed out the airheads from those who know what their eyes are really for. Face it, a lot of luck and personal connections are the key to it, regardless. Some vapid paper manifesto might get you a decent grade in a College English class, but is otherwise mere fluff. Yeah, customs have probably changed, but certainly not for the better. Better to have one gallery owner who looks at a portfolio of actual prints, than a hundred such individuals who decide from resumes and web versions instead. Otherwise, the mere mention of "quality" is meaningless.

MattKing · Apr 18, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Yeah, customs have probably changed

They certainly have.
And the competition for display space is fierce.

DREW WILEY · Apr 18, 2022

Not even worth my time. They used to take a 50% cut; but by doing my own framing, I took the profit on that in advance, so did somewhat better overall. Then galleries went to taking up to 75%, and expected the photographer to pay for outside framing; and if one was lucky, he might get away with a $200 LOSS per print just for the privilege of being shown. Then there are those venues where one rents wall space crowded alongside others. Legit public shows are an exception, but take a long time in advance to find a slot for and to set up; and I feel sorry for those where it coincided with the pandemic shutdown after their long wait. If I were younger, I'd outright buy my own real estate space and run my own dedicated gallery venue. Had numerous chances. But that's a risky business model in the best of circumstances, and there are numerous ways to make a decent living while still enjoying photography. Some of us, of course, have done both. A rite of passage, as far as I'm concerned.

faberryman · Apr 18, 2022

Although I have referred to artist statements as preposterous nonsense, I am not actually nearly as cynical as others here. I think an artist statement can be valuable to help focus and refine a photographic project and to explain to the viewer what the photographer set out to achieve so the viewer has some context in which to view the photographs. My criticism is that many of the ones I have read do not achieve their purpose, either through the failure of the photographer to cogently express his ideas in writing, hence the preposterous nonsense, or the failure of the photographer to successfully realize his ideas in the photographs.

I am particularly interested in how we arrived at this pedagogical construct. When and where did a photography instructor first stand up in front of a group of students and say here is how we are going to do it: idea, artist statement, inscrutable photographs. It strikes me that photography, at least in the art realm, has become an overly academic exercise. Perhaps that it just what happens when you move photography over to the art department. I would like to see aesthetics get at least equal billing, but that's over in the philosophy department. Maybe what we need is an interdisciplinary approach.

VinceInMT · Apr 18, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I'm a Viet Vet too. How does the tuition waiver work and how much?

It depends on each state. Here in Montana, any resident Vietnam Era vet can attend any state school and receive a tuition waiver. The student still has to pay the fees though. Also in Montana, any resident 65 years and older gets a waiver.

All that said, I’ve taken 7 years to do my BFA since I was in no hurry. I also got detoured and took a semester off to have cancer treatment. So when it was all totaled up (which I haven’t done but my wife, the CPA, probably has) I think it was under $10K. That included all the fees and all the stuff I bought: film developer, paint, papers, tools, etc., etc. That was pretty a pretty inexpensive adventure for me. Also, being a student gives me access to all the stuff on campus. The pool at the gym was what I was interested in.

As far as I know the waiver applies to an unlimited number of degrees one might want. And, you don’t even have to work toward a degree. We can audit classes for something like $5 a credit. However, you can’t audit studio art classes so regular enrollment is required.

VinceInMT · Apr 18, 2022

Related to the artist statement is the “artist talk.” They tend to be an expansion of the artist statement and, in most cases, can be followed by Q&A.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
It depends on each state. Here in Montana, any resident Vietnam Era vet can attend any state school and receive a tuition waiver. The student still has to pay the fees though. Also in Montana, any resident 65 years and older gets a waiver.

All that said, I’ve taken 7 years to do my BFA since I was in no hurry. I also got detoured and took a semester off to have cancer treatment. So when it was all totaled up (which I haven’t done but my wife, the CPA, probably has) I think it was under $10K. That included all the fees and all the stuff I bought: film developer, paint, papers, tools, etc., etc. That was pretty a pretty inexpensive adventure for me. Also, being a student gives me access to all the stuff on campus. The pool at the gym was what I was interested in.

As far as I know the waiver applies to an unlimited number of degrees one might want. And, you don’t even have to work toward a degree. We can audit classes for something like $5 a credit. However, you can’t audit studio art classes so regular enrollment is required.

Thanks, at 77, I don't think I have 7 years.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 18, 2022

VinceInMT said:
Related to the artist statement is the “artist talk.” They tend to be an expansion of the artist statement and, in most cases, can be followed by Q&A.

Sounds like a beret and cigarette in a holder will help too.

VinceInMT · Apr 18, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Thanks, at 77, I don't think I have 7 years.

Double up the class load. ;-)

I took 3 studio art classes one semester and spent so much time on campus I considered getting a room in the dorms.

As for not having 7 years, are you saying that you know of or have exit plan?

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 18, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
People who write and use an artists statement want the world to believe that one can not do art without one, however from cave man on through the Reconnaissance and up to now people have produced are without an "Artist's Statement". Hence an "Artist's Statement" is not an "if and only if" requirement. I seriously doubt that Picasso or Gaudi ever had such a document. If they did not need on then I do not need one.

It takes something to compare yourself to Picasso and Gaudi. And by the way, it was the Renaissance, not the Reconnaissance.

Renaissance painters didn't need artists statements because they were almost exclusively painting one of two subjects - religious iconography or thinly-veiled erotica in the form of allusions to classical antiquity. Actually, until the mid-19th century, artists statements were unnecessary because the vast majority of art being created was being created for patrons on commission, not being marketed by the artists to a leisure class whose disposable income they needed to attract.

Of course an artists statement is not necessary to do art. You can sit in your basement and do art all you want, and show it to nobody, and you'll never need an artists statement. If you sit in your basement and do art and only show it to the people who you invite into your home, you don't need an artists statement. If sit in your basement and make art and show it at camera clubs or coffee shops, you probably don't need an artists statement. BUT, if you want to be part of a cultural dialog and contribute to that dialog with your art, then you better damn well have one so that you can actually participate.

Note that an artists statement does not have to be twenty-five paragraphs of Lorem Ipsum-esque artspeak. It could be something as simple as a plain English description of your body of work. And it never hurt anyone to be able to speak coherently about the work that they do.

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