What is a photographic print

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MattKing

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Sorry but viewers don't care about the time your spent on it or how difficult it was to capture and produce. Either the picture works for them or it doesn't.

Many people care a lot about such things.
Have you ever seen a really good platinum/palladium or carbon transfer print?
Have you never seen a really good traditional darkroom ("silver gelatin") print?
Do you have no appreciation for careful adjustments of image tone and colour on a print?
 
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My interest also gets caught by the qualities of the print.
Viewing a print involves viewing a "thing". And how that thing looks is important as well.

Yes, that's why I said when viewed initially. Then we look closer and enjoy the other aspects of the photo. But that's similar to oils. I love getting close to VanGogh thick brush strokes that are hard to realize looking at a photo of his actual work.
 

MattKing

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Yes, that's why I said when viewed initially. Then we look closer and enjoy the other aspects of the photo. But that's similar to oils. I love getting close to VanGogh thick brush strokes that are hard to realize looking at a photo of his actual work.

You see things in a different order than many others do.
We are all individuals in that way - different things impress us in different ways. Viewing things on a screen tends to stamp out such differences.
 

Maris

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I've seen a print turn into a photograph and then back into a print.

The circumstance was at Point Light Gallery in Sydney when I was admiring a 8X10 black and white print of a lighthouse in Rockport, Maine. The picture was centred on a mount board on a workbench. It exhibited a fine run of tones although I thought it a trifle dark. I picked it up and to my amazement the picture slid right off the mount board onto the bench.
What I had encountered was a positive photograph on film base that just happened to be lying on a mount board. I put the photograph back on the mount board before the owner noticed
thus turning it back into a print again, I suppose.

Why did I see it as a print? Answer: Because I saw it as photographic emulsion on paper. That's apparently all there is to the deep historical division between photographs and prints going back to the 19th century.
If it's on paper it's a print. On anything else it's a photograph. In truth I reckon they are all photographs and a paper substrate under the picture should not "demote" a photograph to a print.

And don't ask me what a camera-original paper negative is. Print? Photograph? Either, neither, or both? Anyone?
 
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Many people care a lot about such things.
Have you ever seen a really good platinum/palladium or carbon transfer print?
Have you never seen a really good traditional darkroom ("silver gelatin") print?
Do you have no appreciation for careful adjustments of image tone and colour on a print?

If the process impacts the picture quality and makes it more appealing to the viewer's emotions, than yes. I agree. But 95% of people don't check the process first any more than they look into the kitchen to see how the chef prepared the meal. All that counts is that it's presented nicely and tastes good.
 

Pieter12

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Many people care a lot about such things.
Have you ever seen a really good platinum/palladium or carbon transfer print?
Have you never seen a really good traditional darkroom ("silver gelatin") print?
Do you have no appreciation for careful adjustments of image tone and colour on a print?

I appreciate the effort that goes into a good print. But what I appreciate more is a good image. A perfect print that has taken hours in the darkroom is still of little interest if the image isn't engaging.

I have seen many excellent inkjet prints that entail hours of careful work--as much as a conventional print. Have you never seen a masterful piezograph print?
 
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If the process impacts the picture quality and makes it more appealing to the viewer's emotions, than yes. I agree. But 95% of people don't check the process first any more than they look into the kitchen to see how the chef prepared the meal. All that counts is that it's presented nicely and tastes good.

Let me give an example. I have an original wedding photo of my parents done in 1939. It's either a silver gelatin or platinum because it glows. It's amazing even after 85 years. The glowing is what increases its beauty for the viewer who may know nothing about photography at all. That's the difference between art and craft or process that I mean.
 

MattKing

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If the process impacts the picture quality and makes it more appealing to the viewer's emotions, than yes. I agree. But 95% of people don't check the process first any more than they look into the kitchen to see how the chef prepared the meal. All that counts is that it's presented nicely and tastes good.
I'm comfortable being part of the 5% - it is a pretty big group, and they tend to care a lot.
I appreciate the effort that goes into a good print. But what I appreciate more is a good image. A perfect print that has taken hours in the darkroom is still of little interest if the image isn't engaging.

I have seen many excellent inkjet prints that entail hours of careful work--as much as a conventional print. Have you never seen a masterful piezograph print?

I'm a little uncertain about the term "piezograph", but yes, I've seen a significant amount of excellent digital printing. Some using ink, and some on colour photographic (RA-4) paper. And I consider them to be photographic prints.
 

Pieter12

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Yes, that's why I said when viewed initially. Then we look closer and enjoy the other aspects of the photo. But that's similar to oils. I love getting close to VanGogh thick brush strokes that are hard to realize looking at a photo of his actual work.

Conversely, many paintings change in character when viewed up close. Take a close look at Velasquez's Las Meninas for example and it looks like an abstract expressionist work.

Las_Meninas,_by_Diego_Velázquez,_from_Prado_in_Google_Earth.jpeg
las-meninas-41.png
 
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I appreciate the effort that goes into a good print. But what I appreciate more is a good image. A perfect print that has taken hours in the darkroom is still of little interest if the image isn't engaging.

I have seen many excellent inkjet prints that entail hours of careful work--as much as a conventional print. Have you never seen a masterful piezograph print?

Here's one idea I just made up that might apply to this thread: "Art starts in the viewfinder."

A ChatGBT from Bing when I queried "fuzzy idea ansel.":
Ansel Adams, a renowned American photographer, once said, “There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept” This quote emphasizes the importance of having well-defined intentions when creating a photograph or film. It suggests that capturing a technically perfect image is meaningless if the underlying idea or concept is unclear or poorly defined.

The quote has also been attributed to French New Wave filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard. It appears in different variations, such as “There’s no point in having a sharp image if intentions are blurred” and “There’s no point in having sharp images if you’ve got fuzzy ideas”.

Adams’ quote serves as a reminder for photographers and artists to focus not only on technical aspects but also on the clarity and coherence of their creative vision.
 
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I've seen a print turn into a photograph and then back into a print.

The circumstance was at Point Light Gallery in Sydney when I was admiring a 8X10 black and white print of a lighthouse in Rockport, Maine. The picture was centred on a mount board on a workbench. It exhibited a fine run of tones although I thought it a trifle dark. I picked it up and to my amazement the picture slid right off the mount board onto the bench.
What I had encountered was a positive photograph on film base that just happened to be lying on a mount board. I put the photograph back on the mount board before the owner noticed
thus turning it back into a print again, I suppose.

Why did I see it as a print? Answer: Because I saw it as photographic emulsion on paper. That's apparently all there is to the deep historical division between photographs and prints going back to the 19th century.
If it's on paper it's a print. On anything else it's a photograph. In truth I reckon they are all photographs and a paper substrate under the picture should not "demote" a photograph to a print.

And don't ask me what a camera-original paper negative is. Print? Photograph? Either, neither, or both? Anyone?

What if you mount a positive, original 4x5 chrome film shot on a white lighted background in a frame on the wall? Is that a print, photo, image, etc? :smile:
 

avandesande

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Well you can have it all now and print digital images in the darkroom.
 
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kfed1984

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Well you can have it all now and print digital images in the darkroom.

Yes, a hybrid process that we covered here. Really awesome. I would say photographic.
 

MTGseattle

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Sorry but viewers don't care about the time your spent on it or how difficult it was to capture and produce. Either the picture works for them or it doesn't.

I completely understand. Basquiat spent less time working the canvas than Renoir, but each viewer will react in their own way. I was further allowing for an argument I had seen in the past where people suppose it takes a lot longer to get a really nice silver gelatin print that a really nice inkjet or whatever. That is not necessarily true. Me personally; I'd rather spend the time in the chemicals than at the computer. It's pure personal preference, not a devaluation of one vs the other.
 

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I prefer silver gelatin prints made on enlargers or contact prints. In 2006 I started with a scanner and an inkjet printer. I made about ten prints and had to replace the ink. I did that again. When I went to Costco, I decided that I would not scan to convert film to files and started setting up a darkroom. I still would rather hold a silver gelatin print, single or double weight than something that came off a printer. Anyone having a problem with that, can just move on to the next post.
 
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I completely understand. Basquiat spent less time working the canvas than Renoir, but each viewer will react in their own way. I was further allowing for an argument I had seen in the past where people suppose it takes a lot longer to get a really nice silver gelatin print that a really nice inkjet or whatever. That is not necessarily true. Me personally; I'd rather spend the time in the chemicals than at the computer. It's pure personal preference, not a devaluation of one vs the other.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't have a darkroom to get lost in. So my methods are limited. But I've found that other methods can be very creative and enjoyable as well. My wife limits my wall space for prints. 🥴 So I:m forced to digitize and post on YouTube, Flickr or make slide shows for presenting on my 75" 4K TV. Creating videos is very creative and fun as well. I;ve also done a zine. I can still do prints digitally and send to relatives who have more wall space. :smile:
 

Pieter12

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Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don't have a darkroom to get lost in. So my methods are limited. But I've found that other methods can be very creative and enjoyable as well. My wife limits my wall space for prints. 🥴 So I:m forced to digitize and post on YouTube, Flickr or make slide shows for presenting on my 75" 4K TV. Creating videos is very creative and fun as well. I;ve also done a zine. I can still do prints digitally and send to relatives who have more wall space. :smile:

If you get rid of the TV you’ll free up wall space for some prints!
 

koraks

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My best answer is entanglement, described earlier.
Alright, but that one doesn't work for me, and I doubt it's universal. At least it's not in the way you explained it in the opening post, as a way we would supposedly experience meaning. Here's an example that debunks it:
A few years ago, I was looking at some prints of Rineke Dijkstra in a museum. They were part of the 'beach teenagers' series she made in the early 1990s - so definitely shot on film. The prints were labeled as 'c-prints'. What I do not know, and to this day don't know, is whether those c-prints were part of optically-enlarged editions of prints made by Peter Svenson in his lab, in close association with the photographer, or if they were later digitally exposed c-prints. Lacking a magnifier and framed behind glass, I simply could not tell if they were optically or digitally exposed.

Apparently, quantum entanglement didn't help me, either. I could discern no characteristic of my mental process of finding meaning in these images that suggested that either these prints were entangled with the actual scene. I could only take these prints for what they were - large, confronting images of young people wearing the expressions you'd expect of a 14-year old in a bathing suit being put in front of a camera operated by a woman with piercing eyes.

The problem with this concept of entanglement, at least how I understand it, is that it does not convey to the viewer. Objectively, it just doesn't - it falls dead on the floor the moment the story about its conception is separated from the print.

Still, I do understand how and why you come up with it as the best approximation of what you feel is going on. But I think we need to dig one layer deeper, and make things a little more explicit and tangible, to get rid of another serious problem. This problem is that people are, as you implied before as well, people are personally invested into something, and they will emphasize its value over other things. In this particular case, we run the real risk that as darkroom printers, we are captive of our own prints because of the time, effort and inspiration we put into making these prints. All this work remains an unalienable part of the final product - for us, but not for the external, objective observer.

I'm currently working on a series of portraits, shot on Portra 400 6x6cm and Foma 200 8x10". The prints I make are optically enlarged C-prints for the Portra shots - at least for the series as I intend it to be. Of course, all sitters receive a set of prints, or digital files, as they prefer. And I know for a fact that none of them would appreciate or even be aware of it if I put digitally exposed c-prints in their hands instead of home-made, enlarger-exposed ones. In fact, the odds are that they will greatly prefer the digital versions, because they are of objectively higher quality in virtually every way over the optical ones I make. E

ven worse - the one person who really pressed me for some prints only wants them to be as big as I could make them so he can gift them as a present to his wife, who will probably tape them to a door in their home. I inkjet printed those on A2 Epson photo paper - the largest size my printer at home can handle. No sign whatsoever on the side of the sitters/recipients of the prints that they prefer a certain type of print.

They care about the image. They care to an extent about who made it, and why, and about the interaction between them and the maker. They do not care, nor are they aware of the production process of the prints. I believe that this is true for the vast majority (let's say 99.998%) of the general population, mostly because they are not captive of the process of making the prints the way we (you and I) are, as darkroom workers.

So to get this theory of entanglement in the realm of viability, we'll have to prevent it from becoming entangled (hah!) with our own cognitive dissonance. Because that is what I believe constitutes the lion's share of the appreciation of analog prints, especially among photographers.

I also love how my chromogenic prints came out on the cheapest Fuji paper from medium format, in terms or resolution, my inkjet was so so. For black and white I can made better resolution than inkjet. Materiality you can call it. The only thing I need to work on are the blacks, which don't seem black enough on silver-gelatin.
There are objective qualities to printing processes that constitute real, observable differences. They virtually always constitute a tradeoff between various characteristics. As such, I've never been able to discern a tendency of the balance tipping in favor of analog prints. If there were, I couldn't explain the inkjet (sorry, 'giclee') prints on countless museum and gallery walls, or in private collections, nor the countless square miles of digitally exposed c-prints churned out on a weekly basis by computer-dominated industrial labs.

My post my sound cynical to you, but it truly isn't. In a way, I agree with you - or at least, I want to agree with you. But so far, after having thought about the question on and off for a decade or so, I have not been able to figure out what the valid reason would be. So far, the best I can come up with is that there is no truly valid reason, and that it's just personal preference, resulting mostly from cognitive dissonance combined with a penchant towards getting my hands wet in the darkroom, and that the narrative that's constructed in this way is contrived and very difficult to sell (economically or otherwise) to someone who does not share my specific set of experiences and preferences.

I still have my hopes set on you for finding a more solid conceptual basis, but I repeat what I said before: it's going to take some intellectual exercise to get it done. Merely mentioning ill-conceived parallels (the painting vs. the inkjet) doesn't cut it, neither the conceptual equivalent of entanglement (which I would suggest to leave in the realm it originates from, i.e. theoretical physics), because none of those parallels or figures of speaks hold up once you systematically analyze them and realize that the fundamentally different boundary conditions under which they operate simply do not translate into the world of photography. The solution will really have to be inside the field of photography, and will have to be a credible, consistent and well-formed conceptual argumentation that stands on its own.
 

Don_ih

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If it's on paper it's a print. On anything else it's a photograph.

A "print" is a final product and can be any number of things - a photographic print, a lithograph of a drawing, text - produced by a printing process. A print can be a photograph. An Instax photo is a good example: it is a photo produced in-camera (that's the printing process). But one will generally call any photographic print a photograph. There is no reason not to.

Film photography tends to make a distinction because of the ridiculously large piles of negatives we have. While those things are not prints, they are photographs (inverted). They are in every respect identical to the way an image works on a tintype - put a thin one on some black paper and look at it obliquely - and a tintype is normally understood to be a photograph.

...

Photography is a diverse and wide-ranging field of activities, really. It suffers from an inability to be defined by means of its subject (because there doesn't even need to be one), its methods (you don't even need to use a camera), its objects or its products, or its uses or ends. And attempts to define it always seem too confining - there is always something the definition excludes or denies. Yet every person here knows what they consider to be photography.

So, in the end, maybe it is best to accept it as a personal pursuit, a practice that is in great part defined by its individual practitioners, and stop baselessly elevating one's own personal preferences.
 

L Gebhardt

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This strikes me as yet another one of those metaphysical debates without a universal answer. Talk of entanglement and the like strikes me as hokum. However I see where the OP is coming from trying to rationalize their feelings. I personally value photographic objects more highly the closer they are to the hands of the artist. I do not mind a well made inkjet or laser/led printed c-prints, but tend to respect an expertly made traditional print more. Gate keeping of terminology is a futile endeavor based on past observations of how words have changed. Being specific about the technical aspects of the work is probably the only way around this, not making up alternative words we wish others would use instead. That may mean we need to place important qualifiers on our work if you think the audience cares about such things. My limited experience is other photographers care much more about how a print was made compared to the general public, but some non photographers still value the hand made over the machine made so it's useful to include some process information if it may elevate the work in their eyes.
 

koraks

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This strikes me as yet another one of those metaphysical debates without a universal answer. Talk of entanglement and the like strikes me as hokum. However I see where the OP is coming from trying to rationalize their feelings. I personally value photographic objects more highly the closer they are to the hands of the artist. I do not mind a well made inkjet or laser/led printed c-prints, but tend to respect an expertly made traditional print more. Gate keeping of terminology is a futile endeavor based on past observations of how words have changed. Being specific about the technical aspects of the work is probably the only way around this, not making up alternative words we wish others would use instead. That may mean we need to place important qualifiers on our work if you think the audience cares about such things. My limited experience is other photographers care much more about how a print was made compared to the general public, but some non photographers still value the hand made over the machine made so it's useful to include some process information if it may elevate the work in their eyes.

Thanks; in case @kfed1984 doesn't feel like going through my more verbose posts, I'd suggest using yours above as an apt summary of what I tried to convey.
 
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If you get rid of the TV you’ll free up wall space for some prints!

Why don't you ask my wife what she thinks of that idea? :smile:
 
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