What is a better term than "Hybrid Darkroom?"

Ken Nadvornick said:

Well, yes... but perhaps think a little deeper. Why is there any attitude at all, let alone way too much, on APUG? Here's a few additional observational data points that may help:

(1) Generalized human nature tells us that when someone is insulted, they get angry. And usually want to get even.

(2) Traditional film/plate/chemical photography was in play for over 160 years before software-abstracted photography arrived on the scene.

(3) Intellectual discourse carried out online is itself also abstracted, such that the conversing parties never stand face-to-face.

(4) Full participation on APUG requires member commitment in the form of financial commitment. This supposed to be a full-duplex transaction.

(5) APUG was instituted ~13 years ago as fully analog, has never changed, and has enjoyed nothing but increased success over time under this business model.

(6) In a sign of just how much its core user base supports that APUG model, the site owner recently asked for $1,500 to help offset upgrade costs. Unsolicited, he very quickly received ~$5,000.

Perhaps these points, once connected, may help better illuminate the true state of affairs?

Ken

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You make some unwarranted assumptions:

1) Yes, I do believe you have personalized this issue way more than is warranted. But revenge and
one-upmanship in web discussions is almost never productive.
4) I am a paid member.
5) Unwillingness to consider better accommodating a changing customer profile is not a good business model.
6) I contributed to the upgrade. That does not constitute not a blanket approval of everything that happens
on APUG. It means that, despite these shenanigans, APUG can still be a valuable resource.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Well, yes... but perhaps think a little deeper. Why is there any attitude at all, let alone way too much, on APUG? Here's a few additional observational data points that may help:

(1) Generalized human nature tells us that when someone is insulted, they get angry. And usually want to get even.

(2) Traditional film/plate/chemical photography was in play for over 160 years before software-abstracted photography arrived on the scene.

(3) Intellectual discourse carried out online is itself also abstracted, such that the conversing parties never stand face-to-face.

(4) Full participation on APUG requires member commitment in the form of financial commitment. This supposed to be a full-duplex transaction.

(5) APUG was instituted ~13 years ago as fully analog, has never changed, and has enjoyed nothing but increased success over time under this business model.

(6) In a sign of just how much its core user base supports that APUG model, the site owner recently asked for $1,500 to help offset upgrade costs. Unsolicited, he very quickly received ~$5,000.

(7) Sadly, this thread is not the first of its kind on APUG. Nor will it be the last of its kind regarding digital/hybrid on APUG, even with the newly upgraded system software. Why? Start over at (1)...

Perhaps these points, once connected, may help better illuminate the true state of affairs?

Ken

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Well said the the Troll will continue to ring their broken bell.

(2) Traditional film/plate/chemical photography was in play for over 160 years before software-abstracted photography arrived on the scene.




software - abstracted photography is right now revitalizing applied colour over palladium... google Steichan Moonrise over lily pond.
This is exactly the process that I am currently obsessed over and many others who for whatever reason have left APUG.




Ken I too have supported this new initiative, and I also contributed years ago to this site in many ways and those of us who are pushing this have the right to do so.

pschwart said:

You make some unwarranted assumptions:

1) Yes, I do believe you have personalized this issue way more than is warranted. But revenge and
one-upmanship in web discussions is almost never productive.
4) I am a paid member.
5) Unwillingness to consider better accommodating a changing customer profile is not a good business model.
6) I contributed to the upgrade. That does not constitute not a blanket approval of everything that happens
on APUG. It means that, despite these shenanigans, APUG can still be a valuable resource.

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You are allowing emotion to color your interpretation of data. Here that manifests as independently trying to find a justification in each presented data point that will support the conclusion(s) you have already drawn beforehand, instead of looking deeper and trying to see what they all may have in common.

For example, we know that you are a subscriber. It says so right on your avatar window. Knowing that is why I included (4). The question posed was not: Are you a non-paying member? The question was: In a full-duplex transaction (tendered value equals return value) are you getting the full and complete APUG experience in your transaction? Meaning, are you getting all of what you paid for?

Because a large number of the rest of us, especially some who choose to pay far above the minimum in order to help preserve the all-analog mandate of this site, feel we are not. And the reason we are not has to do with individuals who constantly try to change that mandate to suit their own personal circumstances.

As well, if APUG's business model is not a good one, then why has the site enjoyed virtually constant success over the years? In the 10+ that I've been here I've never seen the membership go down. Or the post count stagnate. Or the 'currently online' value ever do anything other than increase month-over-month. And given the nature of my job, I can watch this site all day long every work day.

I think you have preordained your conclusions, and are simply trying to fit the data in sideways...



Ken

Michael R 1974 said:

Well, the only solution I'm left with is to have this debate settled in the octagon. Mustafa and Drew Wiley are up first.

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Your post triggered the thought that apug could be a universe for slash fiction ... The mind truly boggles when one considers the possible pairings

Ken Nadvornick said:

(5) APUG was instituted ~13 years ago as fully analog, has never changed, and has enjoyed nothing but increased success over time under this business model.

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A LOT has changed in the past 13 years!

Ken:

I think you just enjoy sparring. That's fine once in a while, but I come here for photography, not endless arguments.
I think we all need to start looking for some middle ground. Photographic technologies are changing and that somehow needs to be acknowledged in ways that are agreeable to the member community. It's a valid discussion that can't be dismissed just because things have been different.
I have no problem with analog. I am skeptical about anyone who claims their working method is "pure." Whose definition? But if these folks can't find a way to be a bit more accommodating, they will end up in a much smaller forum all by themselves. That might actually be a fitting punishment

Bob Carnie said:

software - abstracted photography is right now revitalizing applied colour over palladium... google Steichan Moonrise over lily pond.

This is exactly the process that I am currently obsessed over and many others who for whatever reason have left APUG.

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Bob, I have huge respect for what you do up there in Toronto. But again, it's not the value or timeliness of the hybrid process that is in question. I'm sure the application of those processes are wonderfully well sited to their purposes. And the individuals applying them are rendering amazingly beautiful—and artistically relevant—results.

The issue is not the Things, it's the appropriateness of the Things within the context of APUG. And what precedents will be set if the rules are allowed to drift too far off centerline.

To refer back to interpreting my list, too many traditional film photographers (at all levels of skill) have over the years had the snot kicked out of them by digital evangelists. (Item (2) was inserted to answer the chicken-and-the-egg problem regarding who really started the abuse in the first place.) So they came here looking for a safe niche where they didn't have to take the abuse any longer.

APUG was founded precisely to be that niche. Is it so hard to understand why they fight to keep it the way it is? They know what the other side looks like for them, because they've already experienced it.

A much more tightly integrated DPUG is a fabulous idea. DPUG itself is a fabulous idea, if people would just use it. But for some reason, they won't. It's a mystery. Perhaps that will change soon. I hope so.

Ken

My money is on the mountain man Drew.
QUOTE=Michael R 1974;1953759141]Well, the only solution I'm left with is to have this debate settled in the octagon. Mustafa and Drew Wiley are up first.[/QUOTE]

pschwart said:

Photographic technologies are changing and that somehow needs to be acknowledged in ways that are agreeable to the member community.

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Agreed. That's what DPUG is all about. Accommodating the new, without losing the old. Creating a non-zero sum outcome.

Why people here fight so hard against using it is, as I said above, a complete mystery to me.

And as far as possibly ending up in a smaller forum? I'll be more than happy to take my chances. In fact, if it meant fewer threads like this one so film people could just simply live in peace, I might even pay extra for that outcome.*

Ken

* Actually, I thought I already was...

A much more tightly integrated DPUG is a fabulous idea. DPUG itself is a fabulous idea, if people would just use it. But for some reason, they won't. It's a mystery. Perhaps that will change soon. I hope so



Ken - I can tell you exactlly why its difficult for me... I tried DPUG but frankly , I love Large Format Group, I love APUG, I don't have enough time in the day to go to a third site to discuss my passion of photography.
I chose APUG and LFPG as my two daily vices... and completely dropped DPUG.

I would prefer one online vice but I get different info on both sites .. I feel on LFPG there is more digital info, which has been pointed out by many on this thread, but I really get my fix (pardon the Pun) for the darkroom here on APUG.

So basically it boils down to me being too lazy or just not enough time to spend on three sites... there I said it I am outed.

Bob - don't expect me to jump into this ring for a tag-team stomp of anyone. I have my personal preferences for tactile techniques, for sure. But I also have a quite a few friends in the "hybrid" camp. What I enjoy ridiculing are cultural addictions to consumer electronics and that whole geek lifestyle that goes with it. They can't afford to buy a house with a darkroom cause they can't live without the latest Apple Smart Watch, don't know how to grind their own coffee, so pay five bucks three times a day for a Starbucks latte, don't know how to cook so eat out every meal, and are stuck paying $3000 a month for a condo space, then another $300 for a parking space. Then six months later they'll spend another $2000 on some still newer silly gadget. I would have said the same thing back when film SLR's were being marketed with all sorts of silly bells n's whistles that nobody really needed but thought they had to have because that's what was advertised on the endleaf of a Natl Geo mag. They run around in circle wearing electronic bracelets that tell them how many of those latte calories they've burned. Though huffing and puffing did that by itself. Cave bears were invented to cure those kinds of habits.

Bob Carnie said:

A much more tightly integrated DPUG is a fabulous idea. DPUG itself is a fabulous idea, if people would just use it. But for some reason, they won't. It's a mystery. Perhaps that will change soon. I hope so

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That will require more moderation which may not be a bad thing.

If I'm correct, forums such as APUG were started to keep analogue photography alive and for those wanting to discuss it. Allowing it to discuss "Hybrid" which is by and large a Giclee word for "Digital", is the thin end of the wedge. It would be pure submission to the digital onslaught. And surprise surprise the people whining about the forum rules are the people using digital in some way or another.

Well my opnion is don't let the whiners spoil the party. If they didn't like the rules they shouldn't have signed up to them. By their own arguments this is a last bastion of analogue. If you change that then whats the point. There will be 100s if not thousands of new digital members who will swamp the forum with digital posts and there will be more endless arguments about whether a particular digital topic is valid. Far better to keep "Hybrid" separate IMO. Hell you've been provided with your own specialist forum but won't use it. There's no pleasing some people.

Bob Carnie said:

Ken - I can tell you exactlly why its difficult for me... I tried DPUG but frankly , I love Large Format Group, I love APUG, I don't have enough time in the day to go to a third site to discuss my passion of photography.
I chose APUG and LFPG as my two daily vices... and completely dropped DPUG.

I would prefer one online vice but I get different info on both sites .. I feel on LFPG there is more digital info, which has been pointed out by many on this thread, but I really get my fix (pardon the Pun) for the darkroom here on APUG.

So basically it boils down to me being too lazy or just not enough time to spend on three sites... there I said it I am outed.

Click to expand...

William Shakespeare said:

Cassius:

Men at some time are masters of their fates.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars
But in ourselves, ...
​

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So walk into your bathroom, take a look at yourself in the mirror, and quit your hybrid bitchin' in APUG, do it in DPUG. Then get back to contributing analog processes and techniques on APUG.

Bob Carnie said:

So basically it boils down to me being too lazy or just not enough time to spend on three sites... there I said it I am outed.

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Bob, someday I need to buy you a beer. Or three. You are the only one here with the balls to actually come out and help identify at least one the 800-pound gorillas in the room.

I watch this site all day long while working. It's not like other online places. Either by accident or savant-level intuition of the management, APUG has become a far more close-knit community than almost all of the others out there.

Those I know on the LFPF (I am not) tell me about more and better information, less chatter, and hair-trigger moderation. David weighed in here a few posts back to claim similarly for DPUG (except the hair-trigger part). Although understandably one reason for that is likely just trying to prime the pump.

But for whatever reason, moderation here is extremely light. I realize those here who are recently banished won't agree, but in a general sense it's true. What that has done is to make this place more like an extended family.

Members come here not just to get information, but to spend a few extra hours chatting, or bickering and sparring, or browsing the gallery, or maybe just reading. It's akin to a minor destination resort. Or online vice. Some of the best threads are in the lounge and have nothing to do with photography.

And it's that sense of family camaraderie that people don't want to risk giving up by moving to DPUG. Or to other more digital-friendly sites. They are comfortable here. They know people and are known by people. It's the Cheers bar syndrome.

But that sword cuts both ways. It also then becomes far more desirable for them to ask that this place change to match their changing circumstances, rather than for them to change their circumstances to accommodate the rules here. And to (strangely) claim as some have done in this thread that people are trying to evict them.

The change threshold for these members has become too high. They are too comfortable. In other words, too lazy. They want everyone else to change instead. And I think therein lies at least part of the problem with DPUG...

Ken

"Hybrid" which is by and large a Giclee word for "Digital"

Repeating this doesn't make it so. A "giclee" is just an inkjet print, and the term has no credibility with anyone I know using hybrid processes. An inkjet print may or may not be part of a particular hybrid workflow. Let's all make an attempt to accurately characterize the elements of this discussion.

don't let the whiners spoil the party

There's that APUG attitude.

RobC said:

That will require more moderation which may not be a bad thing.

If I'm correct, forums such as APUG were started to keep analogue photography alive and for those wanting to discuss it. Allowing it to discuss "Hybrid" which is by and large a Giclee word for "Digital", is the thin end of the wedge. It would be pure submission to the digital onslaught. And surprise surprise the people whining about the forum rules are the people using digital in some way or another.

Well my opnion is don't let the whiners spoil the party. If they didn't like the rules they shouldn't have signed up to them. By their own arguments this is a last bastion of analogue. If you change that then whats the point. There will be 100s if not thousands of new digital members who will swamp the forum with digital posts and there will be more endless arguments about whether a particular digital topic is valid. Far better to keep "Hybrid" separate IMO. Hell you've been provided with your own specialist forum but won't use it. There's no pleasing some people.

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pschwart said:

don't let the whiners spoil the party

There's that APUG attitude.

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We live in a determinative universe. Things happen for reasons. Or don't happen because other things happened instead for other reasons.

I wonder why that attitude is there in the first place?

As applied here, it certainly wasn't manifest before digital photo technology arrived on the scene...

Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

Agreed. That's what DPUG is all about. Accommodating the new, without losing the old. Creating a non-zero sum outcome.

Why people here fight so hard against using it is, as I said above, a complete mystery to me.

And as far as possibly ending up in a smaller forum? I'll be more than happy to take my chances. In fact, if it meant fewer threads like this one so film people could just simply live in peace, I might even pay extra for that outcome.*

Ken

* Actually, I thought I already was...

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Why people here fight so hard against using it is, as I said above, a complete mystery to me.

That's actually an interesting discussion. Personally, I think the serious hybrid practitioners are mostly alt process folks, in other words, print makers. I count myself in that crowd. We often use film, but we also leverage some digital processing in our workflows. We make prints that are handcrafted, and usually chemically processed. A lot of us have extensive professional darkroom experience. I think we feel a closer affinity for APUG than endless posts about digital hardware or ad nauseam posts about scanning even though there is actually not much discussion on APUG about creating prints. APUG also has lots of noise -- a large number of posts are really social and have little useful content -- and the same affinity for discussing hardware. Neither forum is perfect.

pschwart said:

Why people here fight so hard against using it is, as I said above, a complete mystery to me.

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And that's the problem, you just don't understand.

Fifteen pages of arguments by about 10 people out of the 75,000+ members of APUG is a rather small and normal event. Others just don't reply or lurk and enjoy the "fun". And meanwhile, no pictures are being taken and no darkroom work is being performed by many of these posters.

I've said it before, and that is that you can count on the same people to post and to post over and over in these threads.

PE

there is the Hybrid Photo Group in APUG itself. Less than 40 topics in 7 years and they want to change the rules to suit themselves. Give me a break...

Photo Engineer said:

Fifteen pages of arguments by about 10 people out of the 75,000+ members of APUG is a rather small and normal event. Others just don't reply or lurk and enjoy the "fun". And meanwhile, no pictures are being taken and no darkroom work is being performed by many of these posters.

I've said it before, and that is that you can count on the same people to post and to post over and over in these threads.

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Aww Ron, now that's unfair. How many conversations have you ever held simultaneously with a group of 75,000+? Seems to me that even just 10 would require a trip to the pizza parlor after the rec league softball game was over.

As for no pictures being taken, I just posted (there was a url link here which no longer exists) less than six hours ago. Do they count??



Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

We live in a determinative universe. Things happen for reasons. Or don't happen because other things happened instead for other reasons.

I wonder why that attitude is there in the first place?

As applied here, it certainly wasn't manifest before digital photo technology arrived on the scene...

Ken

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I get it -- "the hybrid whiners made me do it." Or maybe bad behavior is just bad behavior.
I'm going to go make some carbon prints; I'll leave you to it.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Aww Ron, now that's unfair. How many conversations have you ever held simultaneously with a group of 75,000+? Seems to me that even just 10 would require a trip to the pizza parlor after the rec league softball game was over.

As for no pictures being taken, I just posted (there was a url link here which no longer exists) less than six hours ago. Do they count??



Ken

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Ken, depends on how recent. I could post some "recent" images myself! I have thousands.

But, I can hold my own with 75,000+ as we all have.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Ken, depends on how recent. I could post some "recent" images myself! I have thousands.

But, I can hold my own with 75,000+ as we all have.

PE

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June 20th, nine days ago? They are Provia 100F, so I had to wait for Dwayne's to process. I don't do E-6 at home.

I also have some new-to-me sheet film testing scheduled for this upcoming weekend. Then the yearly Arlington Fly-In airshow the following weekend. That's the event where I got roasted for my little-girls-with-a-machine-gun photo two years ago.

Thought APUG was going to kill me in my sleep...

Ken