what happens to retired film formulas?

Photo Engineer · Jun 6, 2019

We would translate testbeguss as test coating. That is the only thing I would change.

Thanks much.

PE

Arcadia4 · Jun 6, 2019

To answer some points above, the main Ilford Coater M14 was built specifically for them and commissioned in 1970 and was originally installed at their site in Brentwood Essex, development commencing in 1966 under ICI ownership and completing under CIBAs (later CIBA-GEIGY) ownership before being moved north to Mobberley in 1981 with the closure of the Essex site. Its undergone a number of upgrades over time as coating technology has developed.

There is a plan and brief history of the machine about half way down this article on an Ilford factory tour by a local newspaper in the NE.
http://this-is-sunderland.co.uk/2013/12/15/ilford-factory-tour-where-black-and-white-film-is-made/

At the end of the Article there is a short video of the M27 pilot coater, 120 spoolers and the ex Agfa conversion and packaging machines in action. The latter were fairly state of the art at the time of the Agfaphoto collapse and no doubt added greatly to Ilfords production efficiency and continued ability to compete in the current market including converting film for 3rd parties.

Henning Serger · Jun 6, 2019

Arcadia4 said:
There is a plan and brief history of the machine about half way down this article on an Ilford factory tour by a local newspaper in the NE.
http://this-is-sunderland.co.uk/2013/12/15/ilford-factory-tour-where-black-and-white-film-is-made/
View attachment 224781

Thanks for posting this! Funny thing: The reporter was in my group at the factory visit. I have found myself on three of the pictures .

Best regards,
Henning

Photo Engineer · Jun 6, 2019

This is a narrow width coater similar to the Kodak machine except ours had 2 8 slide heads and this one appears to have a 4 slide head. Of course, there can be an additional slit at the very tip that is out of sight.

Very nice and clean. Ours was much much older and is rather getting to show its age. At least IMHO.

Thanks.

PE

Ian Grant · Jun 7, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Well, the situation with the very modern Agfa 135 film converting line was real challenging for Ilford. At the factory tour we've seen this huge line in full operation, and Simon explained us the details. The main problem was that the workers who dismantled the machinery in Germany for transportation to Mobberley did some severe mistakes: They cut all the electric cables, without marking the connection points!! And there were more than 100,000 different cables! The Ilford engineers and technicians needed more than one year to get this converting line running again.
Simon described that with the wonderful and unique British black humour: "Before we've bought the Agfa machinery our engineers did not speak one single German word. After the installation they are speaking fluently German......" .
The factory tour was amazing. Not only because of the fascinating technological information we've got (they even made a test coating run for us under light; and I was only 60cm away from the coating head, an unforgettable experience) but also because of the very kind, friendly and very funny and humerous Ilford employees. We've laughed so much this day. Just another quote from one of Simon's colleagues: "I was hired at the beginning of the 80ies here at Ilford to implement colour film production. You have seen the big green grass field in the middle of our plant area. There the colour film coating machine should have been built. The green grass field and our product portfolio clearly shows you how successful I was....." . They have cracked joke after joke. At the end of the day I had a muscle soreness in my midriff .

Henning

I suspect your Ilford tour was a year or so later than mine, I think most of the Agfa machinery was waiting to be re-assembled on our visit.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Jun 7, 2019

Sal Santamaura said:
My deduction is unshaken that, until Polywarmtone hits the market, Marley coats only test runs of ADOX sensitized products, with production coating occurring elsewhere.

I don't have a reference immediately to hand but I think Mirko has stated in an interview that Polywarmtone will be the first product to be fully made 'in house'.

Photo Engineer · Jun 7, 2019

The real pleasure is working all day preparing melts of dispersions and emulsions (after spectrally sensitiizng them of course) and then rolling the cart full of cans and beakers down to the dark elevator and then to the coating machine. Then you watch the machine start coating your experiments. That is about when they chase you out!

PE

Luckless · Jun 7, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
The real pleasure is working all day preparing melts of dispersions and emulsions (after spectrally sensitiizng them of course) and then rolling the cart full of cans and beakers down to the dark elevator and then to the coating machine. Then you watch the machine start coating your experiments. That is about when they chase you out!

PE

I'm not sure why, but I now have the image in my head of young techs gleefully watching the coating machine run before being chased out by a crusty old janitor who flicks the lights off on his way out and mutters something about "kids these days".

Photo Engineer · Jun 7, 2019

Wrong image. Too many people in total darkness without assigned duties can mess up the choreography.

Also, they want quiet.

PE

alanrockwood · Jun 10, 2019

jvo said:
patent office? patent attorney's, other legal filings? sold as intelectual property? part of corporate branding, etc.

you can be sure that if someone said they've manufactured panatomic-x, " just like the ole days", the lawsuits would fly with multile copies of the original formula showing up - and some may even be the same formulation!

I believe panatomic-x was discontinued in about 1987. That's 32 years ago. Any patent involving panatomic-X would be long expired. Therefore, anything that was patented that was used in panatomic-x is now in the public domain and can be used by anyone.

However, there could be copyright issues. In other words, someone could (hypothetically) manufacture a clone of panatomic-X, but if a copyright on the name were still in force then the film could not legally be called panatomic-X. However, the financial condition of Kodak is so fragile these days that, it seems to me, they would be unlikely to waste money defending a copyright on the name of a film that hasn't been made in over 30 years.

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2019

The formula was a trade secret and not published, and it used some pretty nasty chemicals.

Please see my post above.

PE

Paul Howell · Jun 10, 2019

As I recall when Kodak discontinued Pan x and verichrome pan there were 3 reason given. One Tmax 100 had better resolution and finer grain than either, they were not selling all that well and last the process needed to updated to meet EAP rules. I do miss verichome pan, but I don't see any reason for either to make a comeback.

alanrockwood · Jun 10, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
The formula was a trade secret and not published, and it used some pretty nasty chemicals.

Please see my post above.

PE

That's an excellent point, and it confirms something that I had suspected all along, which is that a lot of film manufacturing was/is covered by trade secrets.

Just so everyone is aware, trade secrets can be very powerful because they have no expiration date. The downside is that a trade secret provides protection of intellectual property only as long as it remains a secret. There are several ways to lose a trade secret, such as if the information is independently discovered by fair and honest means or reverse engineering.

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2019

Unless they end up being mislead accidentally. I know of one case of that. I also know of one case of patent violation in which the violators were caught. Very interesting what can be done with forensic investigation of photo materials. That would make some thread!

PE

cmacd123 · Jun 10, 2019

Lawyers love to lump copyright, trademark and patents in all together. BUT

Trademarks last as long is the Name is "used in Commerce" I would guess that someone at Kodak may be in charge of making sure that "Panatomic-X" is mentioned in data sheets or elsewhere to keep up the USED in Commerce status. (ever read a data sheet and see "Verichrome pan" mentioned in the fine print?)

Copyright is extended to crazy lengths of time (can't have Micky Mouse getting out of control) but only applies to EXPRESSION of ideas. So Foobar Industries could claim that their 32PanSpecial is interchangeable with Panatomic X without copyright likely coming into play.

Patents have to disclose how to implement the invention to those skilled in the art. they are for a fixed time. Patent lawyers have gotten good at writing the applications in a way that LOOKS like they are explaining but hide the critical details.

I will side with Ron here that the discontinuance likely had to do with cutting back on unloved chemical ingredients.

Henning Serger · Jun 11, 2019

Ian Grant said:
I suspect your Ilford tour was a year or so later than mine, I think most of the Agfa machinery was waiting to be re-assembled on our visit.

Ian

Hello Ian,
if I remember right, our tour was indeed the last one Ilford offered (there was a small series of 3 or 4 tours at Autumn 2013, and ours was the last/latest I think). Since then no further tours have been offered by Harman technologies / Ilford Photo.

Best regards,
Henning

what happens to retired film formulas?

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