what happens to retired film formulas?

destroya · Jun 2, 2019

I wasn't sure where to post this, but figured this had the more views, so why not here.

My son was looking at a print on the wall for some reason (he doesn't get my photography obsession) and thought it had great tonality (his words). anyway, I told him it was shot on Agfa APX 25, an old film thats no longer made. Why not? he asked. if it was so good, why isnt it made now?

I dont want to discuss why a film is retired (I prefer that term over discontinued, seems more humane). But his comments made me think about something.

What happens to the formulas for all the films that have been discontinued? the APX line, Plus-x, acros and so on. I assume that kodak and fuji still have the film formulas someplace, but what about the old APX formulas? did they go missing after the company dissolved? are they stored someplace? could someone buy them are try to reformulate them to make today? do only a handful of people know the secret recipe and when they are gone does it go with them? Are they written down someplace, or are they a distant memory with a select few smart people?

I know a lot of things go away because of newer tech, like tmax replacing some kodak films. thats not my question and feel free to open a new thread to discuss that. Just wondering what happens to things that are no longer and can they be found/purchased/resurrected if someone has the money and the means.

Kodachromeguy · Jun 2, 2019

I am sure the documents about the ingredients exist for most of these old films, but today there may be restrictions on the chemicals. A friend in Rochester who develops film and conducts tests for Kodak told me that the old Panatomic-X film had a chemical in its production that was toxic. And somewhere I read a similar issue for Agfapan 25. Some of these chemicals may no longer be available from any sources. That was one of many problems that New55 or another company faced that tried to remanufacture Polaroid instant film. It is a new world....

AgX · Jun 2, 2019

Knowing the situation during the insolvency of AgfaPhoto (the production entity) I would not be surprised if they literally got trashed.

Nodda Duma · Jun 2, 2019

Trashed or (if lucky) stored in a closet somewhere.

At my last job I accumulated 5 notebooks worth of technical notes on optical prescriptions and optical testing. They’re in a box somewhere...

I also have a folder on my archive drive with all the optical prescriptions for lenses I’ve designed in the past.

I’m sure it’s the same for old emulsion formulas. As a rule, corporations are terrible at knowledge transfer.

jvo · Jun 2, 2019

patent office? patent attorney's, other legal filings? sold as intelectual property? part of corporate branding, etc.

you can be sure that if someone said they've manufactured panatomic-x, " just like the ole days", the lawsuits would fly with multile copies of the original formula showing up - and some may even be the same formulation!

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2019

There is a big difference between having the legal filings or patents and the knowledge of how to actually make film.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 3, 2019

Haven't the chemicals and hasn't the process for Kodachrome, for example, been published by Kodak?

AgX · Jun 3, 2019

But Kodak is still alive. AgfaPhoto was completely dissolved after the insolvency.

bernard_L · Jun 3, 2019

destroya said:
What happens to the formulas for all the films that have been discontinued?

There is more to making film than just a formula printed on a piece of paper. Specific equipment. Know-how of key personnel. And sometimes there are circumstances that are essential without the successful operator even knowing it (ambient humidity, etc).
I used to do work related to thin-film superconducting circuits, and heard the head of that group state that just moving the lab (same machines, same people... and same formulas) would cost one year until full restart to nominal quality.

twelvetone12 · Jun 3, 2019

Somewhere I remember Mirko from Adox saying they did have Agfa formulas. They actually make revivals of Agfa film (scala 160). I think the reason why we don't have more it because it is super expensive to reproduce them and the market demand is just to small.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2019

One of the key chemicals used in the Agfa APX25 emulsion went out of production. It could have been re-formulated but sales were too low to justify and recover the the R&D costs. The same happened with EFKE 25 shortly before the company closed and one of the Foma films also had to be re-formulated.

It's often not realised that Tri-X went out of production for a similar reason during WWII because a key chemical, probably a sensitiser from Germany, was unobtainable.

The same happened with Atomal and Promicrol were the developing agent 2 (beta-hydroxyethyl) aminophenol sulphate was manufactured in Russia for use in a non photographic process, when that process ceased it was no longer financially viable to manufacture. Both developers were reformulated.

Ian

Rudeofus · Jun 3, 2019

bernard_L said:
There is more to making film than just a formula printed on a piece of paper. Specific equipment. Know-how of key personnel. And sometimes there are circumstances that are essential without the successful operator even knowing it (ambient humidity, etc).

+1 to this.

Everyone take a look at Ferrania, how hard they struggle even if they have access to the complete formula of an old emulsion. Kodak could make the full documentation of Portra 400 available and still nobody here on photrio could make a single batch run of it.

laser · Jun 3, 2019

All of the statements made above are true.

1. This is good news . This means the APUG Community "gets it". The characteristics of a photographic film is dependent on many factors: materials, process equipment, process operator skills, and of course economics.

2. Please don't equate making a photographic developer (or simple AgX emulsion) by formula with making a late 20th century film by formula. Forming a AgX crystal, combining it with other parts of the film is far more sensitive and complex. A high quality emulsion formula isn't a ten page document that tells how to mix a list of components in a vessel with add rates, pH, and different temperature profiles. Rather the "formula" would be several thousand pages that describes the equipment that makes the starting materials, a chemical description of the starting materials including gelatin, how they would be made, and then how the intermediates react and are combined and adjusted to make a single emulsion. Then the various emulsions are made and adjusted to work appropriately with the rest of the emulsions and the non-imaging layers. All this is then coated in several layers, set, and dried. During drying and the post-coating hardening the film's physical and imaging characteristics are constantly changing so that at some point in the future the image recording characteristic may become unsatisfactory.

So having a "formula" that could be given to some one to use is of little practical value. To make a late 20th century film it is necessary to perfect every component and perfect their combination. Rather than making an old film it be far easier and more practical to perfect a new film. Those that are working to provide future films are making new films that have similar characteristic to other films. They are not recreating the old films. Old "formulas" have little value.

If my description is in error it is because I have understated the complexity of the component manufacturing, emulsion making, and film coating process.

Best regards,

Robert Shanebrook
www.makingKODAKfilm.com

Henning Serger · Jun 3, 2019

destroya said:
What happens to the formulas for all the films that have been discontinued? the APX line, Plus-x, acros and so on. I assume that kodak and fuji still have the film formulas someplace, but what about the old APX formulas? did they go missing after the company dissolved? are they stored someplace? could someone buy them are try to reformulate them to make today? do only a handful of people know the secret recipe and when they are gone does it go with them? Are they written down someplace, or are they a distant memory with a select few smart people?

The original Agfa APX formulas are still known, at two current German film manufacturers which have rescued lots of Agfa's technology. I've talked to the emulsion engineers there. The old formulas are very difficult to make and a kind of "outdated" technology wise. They told me it does not make sense to go this route again under current production circumstances. There are better ways to go today, both from an economic and technological point of view. So these engineers are working on new emulsions (and in one case they have already finished that work some years ago with a new product) using different, improved technology.
We will have more new films (really new emulsions) in the future.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Jun 3, 2019

AgX said:
AgfaPhoto was completely dissolved after the insolvency.

Well, in fact quite a lot of the Agfa (Leverkusen) machinery and technology has survived and is intensively used today by three different film manufacturers. I've seen all that in use at all three companies.
The most important part is certainly the fact that one of the most essential parts of the Leverkusen factory - the K14 film coating machine - has been saved by InovisCoat (the founders of InovisCoat were former Agfa engineers). This machine was scaled down a bit, modernised and transferred to the new InovisCoat factory at Monheim (just some kilometers away from Leverkusen).
And there this machine is run by former Agfa engineers. I've visited that factory, and the engineers have shown me all the amazing technology. It is one of the most modern film factories.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Jun 3, 2019

laser said:
All of the statements made above are true.

1. This is good news . This means the APUG Community "gets it". The characteristics of a photographic film is dependent on many factors: materials, process equipment, process operator skills, and of course economics.

2. Please don't equate making a photographic developer (or simple AgX emulsion) by formula with making a late 20th century film by formula. Forming a AgX crystal, combining it with other parts of the film is far more sensitive and complex. A high quality emulsion formula isn't a ten page document that tells how to mix a list of components in a vessel with add rates, pH, and different temperature profiles. Rather the "formula" would be several thousand pages that describes the equipment that makes the starting materials, a chemical description of the starting materials including gelatin, how they would be made, and then how the intermediates react and are combined and adjusted to make a single emulsion. Then the various emulsions are made and adjusted to work appropriately with the rest of the emulsions and the non-imaging layers. All this is then coated in several layers, set, and dried. During drying and the post-coating hardening the film's physical and imaging characteristics are constantly changing so that at some point in the future the image recording characteristic may become unsatisfactory.

So having a "formula" that could be given to some one to use is of little practical value. To make a late 20th century film it is necessary to perfect every component and perfect their combination. Rather than making an old film it be far easier and more practical to perfect a new film. Those that are working to provide future films are making new films that have similar characteristic to other films. They are not recreating the old films. Old "formulas" have little value.

If my description is in error it is because I have understated the complexity of the component manufacturing, emulsion making, and film coating process.

Best regards,

Robert Shanebrook
www.makingKODAKfilm.com

Dear Robert,

meanwhile I have seen five different film factories from the inside, and I can only absolutely agree with you! You are spot on with your explanation. Thank you.

Especially that:
"So having a "formula" that could be given to some one to use is of little practical value. To make a late 20th century film it is necessary to perfect every component and perfect their combination. Rather than making an old film it be far easier and more practical to perfect a new film."

That's exactly what all the engineers have told me at my factory visits. They all go for new films, which fit the current and future production environment.

And by the way: Thank you again very much for your very hard and excellent work with your two books. I have of course both and they are really excellent. I can highly recomend them! Of course the second, more detailed edition is the best .

Best regards,
Henning

twelvetone12 · Jun 3, 2019

What does InovisCoat make these days?

Henning Serger · Jun 3, 2019

twelvetone12 said:
What does InovisCoat make these days?

There are two (legally separated) companies under one roof and in very close relationship sharing production capacities: InovisCoat and Inovisproject. Films and photo papers for several other companies are their main products. Their most important product line (highest production volume) currently are the negative film bases for the Polaroid instant films. The instant film market is booming. Bergger Pancro 400 is another product designed and produced by them (that is why "Made in Germany" is printed on the boxes).

Best regards,
Henning

guangong · Jun 3, 2019

This fascinating thread shows that there are no dumb questions. Very informative course of conversation.
However, wasn’t Kodak a major manufacturer of industrial chemicals?

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Jun 3, 2019

Theo Sulphate said:
Haven't the chemicals and hasn't the process for Kodachrome, for example, been published by Kodak?

I am not sure about the film, but the Kodachrome development process is described in detail in US patent 3658525. If you have enough time and equipment (or perhaps more correctly: the ability to build the required equipment), I beleive the patent to be detailed enough to reproduce the process.

AgX · Jun 3, 2019

Yes, one major asset of AgfaPhoto has been sold. But having been in major sales discussions with their liquidator for months I assume to be able to assess how things were handled. Thus my statement about things being trashed.

Henning Serger · Jun 3, 2019

AgX said:
Yes, one major asset of AgfaPhoto has been sold.

No, more than one has been sold. As explained above: I've seen these assets in operation in three different film/paper factories. And for all three the former Agfa machinery is essential or at least very important.
The L6 (the big paper coating machine) could not have been saved. It was dismantled.

Best regards,
Henning

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2019

laser said:
All of the statements made above are true.

2. Please don't equate making a photographic developer (or simple AgX emulsion) by formula with making a late 20th century film by formula. Forming a AgX crystal, combining it with other parts of the film is far more sensitive and complex.

Stating that discontinued synthesis of an organic chemicals can have an effect on a developer disappearing or a film no longer being manufactured doesn't mean that an emulsion is less than complex, rather that we lose products as a consequence.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jun 3, 2019

Bob is absolutely correct. While an actual "formula" for an emulsion may be 2 or 3 pages long for the procedures of the precipitation, the actual information necessary to prepare the emulsion and the film could fill a book. The "formula" includes codes such as AF-2033 (made up), which would be a reference to a database of AF solutions (antifoggants for this example), which would contain a procedure for making the AF-2033 solution and specify a method and CAS #s for the ingredients therein.

Put all together, this would be pages and pages of information all converging on the head and finally the end of the coating machine. Then, the slitters, choppers, packers and customers and these all have their needs too.

PE

Photo Engineer · Jun 3, 2019

Henning Serger said:
There are two (legally separated) companies under one roof and in very close relationship sharing production capacities: InovisCoat and Inovisproject. Films and photo papers for several other companies are their main products. Their most important product line (highest production volume) currently are the negative film bases for the Polaroid instant films. The instant film market is booming. Bergger Pancro 400 is another product designed and produced by them (that is why "Made in Germany" is printed on the boxes).

Best regards,
Henning

Don't forget that Carestream still operates in the US using Kodak equipment and making products for ALARIS.

PE

what happens to retired film formulas?

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