What film? How to achieve rich grey tones?

[denmark.yuzon]

I've been looking at HCB's pics.. been wondering what film he used.. anyway, ive been using Fujifilm Neopan 400 as my main film.. but, i find it too "modern" if thats the correct term.. im looking for a film that is readily available and at the same time, has that "HCB" look and feel to it.. something that has old emulsions that will give me rich grey tones rather than contrasty black and whites... hope you guys could help out..

one more thing.. i send my films to a local lab.. since i dont have the gears, technical know how of processing my own black and whites.. can a C-41 black and white film be as good as the traditional process black and white films?

 

[ozphoto]

I used to manage a semi-pro photo lab and processed the C41 B&W film quite often. Correctly exposed negs allowed me to produce excellent results that you would be happy with.

However RA4 paper isn't "multicontrast" or available as graded paper. Therefore, matching your negs to a paper that will give you superb results isn't possible. It's one "grade" and all negs - under exposed, correctly exposed and over exposed - are all printed the same. We just adjusted for the highlights or shadows to achieve a "correct" looking print.

Personally, I have used these films and they are quite good, but I'd use the prints as proofs and then have those I really loved printed as proper B&W prints. The difference in the final result will be noticeable and you will appreciate the tonality and subtlety much better than the result you get from an RA4 print.

- Nanette
www.nanettereid.com

 

[2F/2F]

Starting now, spend a year shooting without looking at any other photographs. Then you will have your own style using your own materials, and won't need to ask such pointless questions.

 

[denmark.yuzon]

ayt 2F/2F.. thanks..

 

[MikeSeb]

Starting now, spend a year shooting without looking at any other photographs. Then you will have your own style using your own materials, and won't need to ask such pointless questions.

Now tell us what you really think; don't hold back!

 

[keithwms]

I've been looking at HCB's pics.. been wondering what film he used.. anyway, ive been using Fujifilm Neopan 400 as my main film.. but, i find it too "modern" if thats the correct term.. im looking for a film that is readily available and at the same time, has that "HCB" look and feel to it.. something that has old emulsions that will give me rich grey tones rather than contrasty black and whites... hope you guys could help out..

one more thing.. i send my films to a local lab.. since i dont have the gears, technical know how of processing my own black and whites.. can a C-41 black and white film be as good as the traditional process black and white films?

1) Try fp4+ and tri-x. My own favourite of the 'oldies' is panatomic x, which I have in fair quantity but it is now discontinued (except in extended red versions that come in aerial recon sizes) and has become quite rare. Anyway, for starters, you might check out the foma stuff on freestyle. The price is right and the typical 'look' is roughly what you're after.... quite traditional.

2) The only half-decent b&w chromogenic, IMHO, is ilford xp2, and you need to rate the stuff at 200 or even slower to get decent contrast. I am not such a fan, but it's okay. It definitely will not give you the 'traditional' look though, although with some print filtering you might get it to do something you like.

You can develop your own b&w, it is easy peasy. Really. Don't need a darkroom.

 

[Ian Grant]

The look and feel of original HCB images particularly his best known early work is not down to just the film but the whole film, lens, developer & finally paper combinations of that era.

It's difficult to achieve that look with modern films & materials, some people said Forte films were good for this but in reality I didn't find the final prints reflected this.

The reality is that modern films are vastly superior to the films HCB used in the 40's/50's, and this makes a greater impact with 35mm work compared to larger formats. The majority of modern B&W films are capapble of achieving full rich tones but you do ned to experiment and test to find the best EI and development times to achieve the tonality you require for your own images.

Ian

 

[Andy K]

If you want photographs that look like HCB, use 100 ISO film, guess your exposure and focus, and shoot while moving.

 

[David William White]

Yes, modern films aren't inheritantly more contrasty, it's all in how you expose & develop and how you engineer the light. And you are comparing your negatives to HCB's prints, which has more to do with the tonality of paper and the skill of the printer.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

If you want photographs that look like HCB, use 100 ISO film, guess your exposure and focus, and shoot while moving.

Right on!

I think Keith is right, you might try FP4+ or Tri-X. Of course it's ultimately going to come down to your exposure/development combo.

 

[DanielStone]

just finished watching a show(tv), and they were talking about HCB. they were interviewing him, and he stated that he didn't know how to print. he let someone else handle the darkroom-end of things. he just shot. made no mention of film used, but being that it was in the 40's and 50's, wouldn't pan-x or tri-x have been the stock of the time? not sure about where ilford stood at that timepoint, i know my grandfather used ilford film exclusively when shooting in the 50's and 60's, and beyond. but seeing that HCB was in france, i'm not sure what film he used.

but as stated above, the skill of the printer has much to do with it. remember that a really good printer can take a negative that might otherwise be boring and blah, and make it sing. HCB certainly had a vision and let the printer know what he wanted, but you will have to decide what works for you. 2F made a good point, take some time off of looking at other people's work, and focus solely on YOURS. then you will know how, what and where, time you like to photograph.

best of luck!

 

[removed account4]

If you want photographs that look like HCB, use 100 ISO film, guess your exposure and focus, and shoot while moving.

!!!!!!
exactly andy!

 

[DanielStone]

try the arista premium films, 100 and 400.

personally i believe that this is re-badged kodak plus-x 125 and tri-x 400, IMHO.

and about 1/2 the price (2.19/36exp AP 400) per roll from Freestyle.

the 100 is a tad cheaper than that.

good price for excellent film.

i personally like to soup it in hc110, or pmk pyro. i rate it at 200(for the 400), and 64 for the 100. helps those highlights to "sing" and brings up the shadows a bit.

a great neg makes things much easier, but experience through trial and error in the darkroom is where the magic is made.

just my 2 cents

 

[RobertV]

The materials HCB made his photos and films on are not available anymore. But also on Neopan 400 you can make a more classical look. If you want that pronounced grain and a large grey scale try Neopan 400 on E.I. 200 and soup it in Rodinal.

A typical classical look film is Fomapan Creative 200 (made in the Czech Republic). Here an example in R09 (Para-Amino Phenol) and a test in W665 (Windisch) Ortho Phenyene Diamine where you can see how nice the grey scale is possible with this film. W665 is an ultra fine grain developer where R09/Rodinal is just the other way: pronouced grain and a high acutance. All examples are 35mm examples.

Fomapan 200 in R09.

Fomapan 200 in W665.

 

[removed account4]

i'd look for older "classic" emulsion films like those from europe.
buy expired forte if you can find it, or foma ...
and process them in dektol or a dilute print developer.

the "classic emulsions" are the closest things to what were being used 60+ years ago ... like first cousins
---- the modern films ( like tri x or plus x ) are more like 3rd cousins twice removed

have fun with your research!

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

---- the modern films ( like tri x or plus x ) are more like 3rd cousins twice removed

have fun with your research!

On second thought, john is probably right. FP4 and Tri-X have been undergoing updates for years. The old school eu films are probably your best bet.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have only used it once, just to see if it looked different, but found APX400 to give what appeared to be a greater range of grey tones. The negs had that greyer, less contrasty look than I have found with Ilford. OK it is difficult to draw any firm conclusions from using once but that was my subjective conclusion.

Not necessarily better or worse than Ilford but just different.


pentaxuser

pentaxuser

 

[Chazzy]

As someone who hates guessing the meaning of abbreviations and acronyms, I have to ask: is the HCB you are all discussing Henri Cartier-Bresson?

 

[removed account4]

chazzy

i thought it meant Holy Cow Batman!

 

[c6h6o3]

According to Fred DeVan's article on Harvey's developer at the Unblinkingeye site:

"Cartier-Bresson was a staunch enthusiast and heavy user of 777, and I think was largely responsible for its adoption by Magnum's lab in Paris."

That's at least one thing that's still around that he used. I've found that it gives me glowing midtones like no other developer. However, you're going to have to develop and print your own film. You'll never get what you really want until you do.

 

[wogster]

I've been looking at HCB's pics.. been wondering what film he used.. anyway, ive been using Fujifilm Neopan 400 as my main film.. but, i find it too "modern" if thats the correct term.. im looking for a film that is readily available and at the same time, has that "HCB" look and feel to it.. something that has old emulsions that will give me rich grey tones rather than contrasty black and whites... hope you guys could help out..

one more thing.. i send my films to a local lab.. since i dont have the gears, technical know how of processing my own black and whites.. can a C-41 black and white film be as good as the traditional process black and white films?

Contrast and richness of tones or tonality is a complex combination of film, developer, printing paper and print developer, with a good dash of processors skill thrown in. As long as you depend on someone else to do the processing and printing, you will probably get less then optimal results.

Processing and printing your own film is not difficult, You need a few pieces of equipment, some dark, and a little knowledge. Knowledge is easy, your here and so is tons of information. Dark can be easy, blocking up windows and working at night. The equipment is all available either cheap or on the used market, If you really want a specific result, this is how you get it.

C-41 films really don't have a lot of flexibility, if your looking for rich tones this isn't the way to go.

 

[Mike Richards]

Try Scala

If you can still get some Scala, develop it as a negative in Rodinal 1:25 8.5 minutes at 65F. The grays, especially dark grays, are well defined and rich.

PS if you want to keep your marriage, don't take your spouse's portrait with this combination.

 

[2F/2F]

Scala is a great negative film because it is so unique. It is a black and white negative film, but it was built specifically to be reversed, therefore it has contrast characteristics that are suited to reversal processing. Whether you process it as a neg or as a pos, these characteristics maintain their uniqueness. Thus, even when you are shooting it as a neg, it has the characteristics of a transparency as far as density, contrast, etc. As such, it is a great way to really snap up dead light, without having to overdevelop and in turn increase grain. Tech Pan is the closest thing I can think of that has a *somewhat* similar effect. It is also discontinued, is much more sought after, and is slower.

I would not say that it gives a look anything like any film Mr. Cartier-Bresson would have used for his "classic" pix, nor would I say that it gives a very wide tonal interpretation of a given luminance range. In fact, I would say that of all b/w neg films I have used, it gives the most narrow interpretation of such.

When I shoot Scala, I always shoot it as a neg. I rate it at EI 100 and develop for 5-8 minutes in HC-110 dilution H at 72F. Even at five minutes in a highly diluted solution of HC, and rated at 100, the negatives have some serious punch. Rated at 200 and developed in a stronger dilution, they are a bear to print.

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

Grab two rolls of a few different films, get a decent basic developer like D-76, and see what comes out. Then work from there. Wandering in the wilderness of obscure film/dev combos is often a bit unsatisfying.

 

[clayne]

Definitely APX.