What effing universe is this?

[logan2z]

View attachment 287336

Forgot to post this last year. Wonder if it sold.

Price is nuts, but it was a special edition of 1000 sets made for the LHSA, and they come up for sale rarely. More about it here:

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2015/01/camera-geekery-leica-mp-3/

 

[wiltw]

Somebody win Powerball? Here is something to get...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254555854726?hash=item3b44b61786:g:RzMAAOSwO6xefnL~

If you did not win Powerball, but got about 5 numbers, you can always setlle for this...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264923469322?hash=item3daeab560a:g:DB8AAOSw4A1fkxBA

I assume this must be 'rare' to command its price...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393550269221?hash=item5ba16c8b25:g:TNcAAOSwvkRhMqSt

 

[mcrokkorx]

Another oddity: at least with Hasselblad and Rolleiflexes, as far as I recall, they were always sold with the flip-up waist (chest) level finders. Was the same true for the Bronco SQ-A series and the Mamiya C220 and C330? The prism finder had to be purchased as an additional item. So even photographers who used the prism finder 100% of the time had a spare WL finder in a drawer at home. Where did they all go?

Multiple market forces simultaneously bearing down on what formerly seemed to be an unremarkably common camera part. Biggest factor: anything with even a fleeting connection to 120 film skyrocketed absurdly over the last surreal 18 months.

645 format SLRs that were primarily sold with prism finders (Contax 645) suddenly developed a new following that inexplicably demanded a WLF instead. Since the WLF was a very low volume optional accessory for these systems, prices have gone berserk.

The majority of 645 SLRs that were always sold new (at least in USA) with a WLF as standard equipment (Mamiya M645, Bronica ETR) were long ago upgraded to prisms or meter prisms. Most of those original unloved 645 WLFs have been lost, misplaced, or forgotten. Here again, there is a sudden inexplicable demand for WLFs to replace those prisms (why??? are people only shooting in landscape nowadays?) but very limited supply. Everyone: start looking around for any stray Mamiya or Bronica 645 WLFs immediately! Check those sofa cushions and dog beds!

Trickiest of all: 6x6 SLRs and TLRs, RB/RZ67. These were universally equipped with a WLF when sold new, so one could reasonably assume there must be millions of them lying around. But judging by recent asking prices, apparently not. Perhaps a great many were damaged over the years, with the remaining survivors mostly still attached to their original bodies. The beknighted souls currently in need of a replacement for a broken WLF, or who bought a 6x6/6x7 camera with prism they want to change out for the traditional WLF, must empty their wallets to achieve their goal. I've seen cases of WLF selling for more than the camera body itself, and cases where a body that includes WLF randomly sells for more or less than body and WLF purchased separately.

On the flip side, many medium format prisms that were frightfully expensive options when new can now be had for the price of a salted peanut. Wild.

 

[perkeleellinen]

We had a good innings for about ten years, right? We could buy almost any camera, lens, or piece of darkroom equipment we wanted, sometimes for tiny amounts of money. Some memories:

Living in Sweden, I asked my father to post my FM2 to me from England, the cost was just a little bit less than buying a black FM2 locally, so I got a new body.
I traded that body with a 105/2.5 for a Leica M4.
I got a CV 35/2.5 lens by selling three bricks of EPP
I traded that Leica, CV combo for a RF645
I traded that for a Fuji 645
I sold that and bought a nice Rollei 35 and a bunch of film

I once set up a a few Nikon lenses to trade for a Hasselblad but didn't go through with it because I thought the camera would be hard to focus

I once bought an LPL C7700 for £50
None of my Nova processors came for more than £100
A nice LPL 4 blade easel for £25
I was given seven (!) projectors
I saved a rotating darkroom door from the skip and traded for a lens

Loads of P&S cameras for pennies

Good memories, a great opportunity to try new cameras with very low risk and also a nice way to meet other people. I didn't have a very stable income over this period so trading up and sometimes down was a good way to try new things and it also got a lot of GAS out of my system.

 

[awty]

A few fools offer Paillard-Bolex-H-16 cameras for USD 2,500 and up to over 5,000 on ebay. None of the vendors gives a warranty, they only have a return policy. These cameras aren’t worth more than 400 Dollars or 420, technically. Image steadiness worsenes at higher speeds, the reflex finder system complicates optics, the cameras run the film noisily. To be precise, the lateral film guidance works in the opposite direction to the standards (not with the early models). USD 5,000 was the price at the time when new, inflation respected. I’m right now having an exchange with somebody who tells me that he got offered € 750 for his H-16 RX-4 by a collector. I am offering him € 330. From the pictures he gave me I can clearly see that someone had a go at it, a nut is missing, the front spring is not seated correctly, the mechanism must still be in original state because the mastic seal is intact and I know how Paillard made the seal. Greed and idleness everywhere

And yet you still want one.
Prices will only increase, I bought my REX 4 about six months ago, then paid more for a professional strip down service, then some more for some REX lenses knowing that prices will continue to go up.
On the other hand late model super 8 cameras are cheap as chips and plentiful.

 

[CMoore]

We had a good innings for about ten years, right? We could buy almost any camera, lens, or piece of darkroom equipment we wanted, sometimes for tiny amounts of money. Some memories:

Living in Sweden, I asked my father to post my FM2 to me from England, the cost was just a little bit less than buying a black FM2 locally, so I got a new body.
I traded that body with a 105/2.5 for a Leica M4.
I got a CV 35/2.5 lens by selling three bricks of EPP
I traded that Leica, CV combo for a RF645
I traded that for a Fuji 645
I sold that and bought a nice Rollei 35 and a bunch of film

I once set up a a few Nikon lenses to trade for a Hasselblad but didn't go through with it because I thought the camera would be hard to focus

I once bought an LPL C7700 for £50
None of my Nova processors came for more than £100
A nice LPL 4 blade easel for £25
I was given seven (!) projectors
I saved a rotating darkroom door from the skip and traded for a lens

Loads of P&S cameras for pennies

Good memories, a great opportunity to try new cameras with very low risk and also a nice way to meet other people. I didn't have a very stable income over this period so trading up and sometimes down was a good way to try new things and it also got a lot of GAS out of my system.

Am i the only APUG'er that got a warm and fuzzy feeling from this.?
A thoroughly enjoyable and up-lifting read........... Thank You

 

[Huss]

Am i the only APUG'er that got a warm and fuzzy feeling from this.?
A thoroughly enjoyable and up-lifting read........... Thank You

I dunno, I got sad when I realized he at one point had a Leica M4 w lens and ended up w a Rollei 35..

 

[perkeleellinen]

It does sound like a big downward move doesn't it? I don't think it was, because I'd sometimes trade up by adding a little cash and then a trade down meant cash came to me. The Leica was actually the biggest disappointment out of all the cameras but I think I was expecting too much from it based on over-the-top internet comments. Right next to my laptop as I type this is the same FM2 I asked my father to post to me, the camera I bought new in 1995. I did all this buying and selling and trying new things and the FM2 has always been my 'core' camera and the wear marks were all made by my thumbs.

 

[Bob L]

It does sound like a big downward move doesn't it? I don't think it was, because I'd sometimes trade up by adding a little cash and then a trade down meant cash came to me. The Leica was actually the biggest disappointment out of all the cameras but I think I was expecting too much from it based on over-the-top internet comments. Right next to my laptop as I type this is the same FM2 I asked my father to post to me, the camera I bought new in 1995. I did all this buying and selling and trying new things and the FM2 has always been my 'core' camera and the wear marks were all made by my thumbs.

Truthfully, I never held a Leica so I asked to get the M4 from behind the counter at a camera store. I thought it felt hollow and chintzy. Or maybe my expectations were out of whack.

 

[Moose22]

I. The Leica was actually the biggest disappointment out of all the cameras but I think I was expecting too much from it based on over-the-top internet comments.

I absolutely get this. I don't say it much so as not to rustle peple's jimmies, but I don't get the hype.

I've been shooting my m3 lately and, frankly, it's just a camera. The shutter is nice. The film loading is ridiculously stupid. No meter in the finder, or feedback of any kind for that matter. Even focusing with the 5cm I have is slow as it takes a LOT of movement to get it where you want it, and then it won't focus closer than a meter so you can't fill the frame with a smaller subject.

It's a nice camera for what it does. The lens is excellent so it takes good shots if you don't need to be close and can take your time. Camera shake never comes from trigger pull, which is nice I guess. But what the internets says about it is ridiculous. Its just a camera!

I'd posit that the hype over the FM2 has also gotten out of hand as well judging by the price rises this year, but yours has been with you a long time and served well. I get that too, your connection to it all is important. The only reason I still have a Leica is that I learned on a rangefinder with an external meter that my father brought back from Vietnam in the mid 60s, and it IS sharp glass, so I keep it and occasionally use it. But I use my Nikons for 35mm 9 times out of 10 and, frankly, wish I still had the FM I shot in the 90s, just because of the adventures I had carrying that (and an EM and a 4004, both long gone),

 

[Duceman]

Here's a couple of screenshots of the B&H ad with some MF and LF cameras from a Jan 1989 issue of Popular Photography....

Maybe this is already known here, but another good resource for determining what prices used to be are the Shutan catalogs that are available online (scroll down to mid-page): http://shutan.com/

 

[logan2z]

I absolutely get this. I don't say it much so as not to rustle peple's jimmies, but I don't get the hype.

I think (hope!) we're all big boys and girls here and can accept other people's opinions - and it is simply a matter of opinion and personal taste.

I'm primarily a Leica user but also have a couple of fully-manual Nikon SLRs (an FM and a Nikkormat FT3). I like the Nikons quite a bit but, in my opinion, the Leica is more enjoyable to use. I can focus just as easily with the Leica, have no issues with the film loading, and I just think the Leica feels better in the hand. But I could make arguments in favor of the Nikon as well - not the least of which is price!

In the end, the only thing that really matters is the images that come out of the cameras, and that is mostly up to whoever is behind the finder

 

[NB23]

The mere fact that there are Leicas for sale on the market can only mean that they aren’t satisfying their owners to the point of never selling them.

Some people own ten Leicas, some own only one.

 

[Moose22]

I think (hope!) we're all big boys and girls here and can accept other people's opinions

You'd think. But that's not always the case. See Nikon/Canon holy wars on internets forums in the past couple decades as an example. Some digital forae STILL have those wars and, frankly, if you can't take a passable shot with ANY digital on the market today, switching to Sony/Canon/Nikon/Fuji isn't going to make a difference. Modern digitals are ALL good, beyond that it's just whether you like using yours. But the arguments persist. I don't want to wade into that crap.

Really, I don't care WHAT you shoot. Especially for film. If you're a hobbyist, I'd like to think you enjoy yourself. I hope you get to choose something that matches your style. And something that makes you good negatives. And I mean that genuinely, by the way, I only shoot photographs because I want to, no other reasons, and there's vicarious joy in other people having fun in a way I understand. I love that some cameras make people happy when they use them.

Leicas are good cameras. The film stays dead flat, the lenses I've used are tack sharp, and they are almost infinitely maintainable even when 60-70 years old. If I can deal with the metering, there's no reason I can't get as good a result with mine as any 35mm camera I own, within its limitations. But NOTHING quite matches the Leica hype in some circles, so it's easy to expect more than, well, a good camera. The best camera on earth is really just going to be a good camera that works for you if you're a shooter.

If it weren't for the huge number of overly-effusive reviews and the ever-so-rapidly rising prices I wouldn't complain about anything Leica. Well, except the film loading. I really do think it's klugey and I do like to bitch about things. But if there's any one camera that, for someone who has never used one, sets you up for disappointment, that's the one. The internets can really stir up the hyperbole. You just have to use one to know what it is like, ignore the hype, and decide for yourself what makes you happy.

I most enjoy mine in daylight, on a weekend afternoon when I have a little time to kill, when I'm walking around looking for something nicely lit. Or when I'm too lazy to haul out my MF gear but might want to do some landscapy stuff at sunset after work. I'd grab it for a natural light portrait, too. The fact that I could sell the kit for many hundreds more than I paid not long ago is, I think , the whole point of this thread. Some really good cameras are "good cameras" not magical things, and man the price rise sure doesn't reflect that there's anything different or better than two years ago.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I'd posit that the hype over the FM2 has also gotten out of hand as well judging by the price rises this year, but yours has been with you a long time and served well.

The second body I bought in Sweden was black and that was neat because later I'd put B&W in the black one and colour in the silver. I thought recently of doing that again but the prices have certainly gone up, long gone are the days of sub-100 FM2 bodies! I then thought about upgrading to the FM3 but those prices are soon going to push into 1K territory.

 

[Moose22]

The second body I bought in Sweden was black and that was neat because later I'd put B&W in the black one and colour in the silver. I thought recently of doing that again but the prices have certainly gone up, long gone are the days of sub-100 FM2 bodies! I then thought about upgrading to the FM3 but those prices are soon going to push into 1K territory.

I thought I overpaid for my FM3a , but... well, looking at prices now it seems less the case. I love that camera, and I'm glad I got it when I thought FM2 prices were too high, but they cost more now than I paid for my high serial number, US model F6 in December.

I also have an FA and an F3, and each has something I like about them. The FA was still cheap, too, but I'm sure it'll be "discovered" and go price crazy like everything else. I can get stellar results from all three so I stopped looking for an FM2.

The FM3a has one thing I like extra, and that's the needle meter. I'm trying to learn stuff about exposure and I find it really easy to know how over or under I am from the meter reading. Kinda wish it was 80/20 instead of 60/40, or had a switchable spot meter, but even 60/40 I find it great to see the scene and SEE how much over or under I go rather than counting clicks, or I can point it into a shadow and see how far it drops then just lock with the thumb. So I have a couple of ways to work quickly with it in manual OR aperture priority.

As they approach $1K, I don't think the needle meter is THAT important! WHo knows what I'll think next year, though.

 

[Dismayed]

The mere fact that there are Leicas for sale on the market can only mean that they aren’t satisfying their owners to the point of never selling them. . .

People do die. I can't justify the price of a Leica myself. I have a Mamiya 7 II instead, which also has fantastic lenses.

 

[CMoore]

I thought I overpaid for my FM3a , but... well, looking at prices now it seems less the case. I love that camera, and I'm glad I got it when I thought FM2 prices were too high, but they cost more now than I paid for my high serial number, US model F6 in December.

I also have an FA and an F3, and each has something I like about them. The FA was still cheap, too, but I'm sure it'll be "discovered" and go price crazy like everything else. I can get stellar results from all three so I stopped looking for an FM2.

The FM3a has one thing I like extra, and that's the needle meter. I'm trying to learn stuff about exposure and I find it really easy to know how over or under I am from the meter reading. Kinda wish it was 80/20 instead of 60/40, or had a switchable spot meter, but even 60/40 I find it great to see the scene and SEE how much over or under I go rather than counting clicks, or I can point it into a shadow and see how far it drops then just lock with the thumb. So I have a couple of ways to work quickly with it in manual OR aperture priority.

As they approach $1K, I don't think the needle meter is THAT important! WHo knows what I'll think next year, though.

Heavens To Murgatroyd.............
Is that what the 3A is going for these days.?

I know hey have been very desirable for a long time, but i guess i did not realize how "Desirable" that is
Just the way things are i guess

 

[GarageBoy]

A few fools offer Paillard-Bolex-H-16 cameras for USD 2,500 and up to over 5,000 on ebay. None of the vendors gives a warranty, they only have a return policy. These cameras aren’t worth more than 400 Dollars or 420, technically. Image steadiness worsenes at higher speeds, the reflex finder system complicates optics, the cameras run the film noisily. To be precise, the lateral film guidance works in the opposite direction to the standards (not with the early models). USD 5,000 was the price at the time when new, inflation respected. I’m right now having an exchange with somebody who tells me that he got offered € 750 for his H-16 RX-4 by a collector. I am offering him € 330. From the pictures he gave me I can clearly see that someone had a go at it, a nut is missing, the front spring is not seated correctly, the mechanism must still be in original state because the mastic seal is intact and I know how Paillard made the seal. Greed and idleness everywhere

Which 16/s16 cameras were actually the high end cameras? Arri 416?

 

[Horatio]

A camera store in Raleigh, NC has listed a FM3a for $600. Get it while can!

 

[Duceman]

People do die. I can't justify the price of a Leica myself. I have a Mamiya 7 II instead, which also has fantastic lenses.

Same here.

 

[logan2z]

A camera store in Raleigh, NC has listed a FM3a for $600. Get it while can!

That's cheap compared to the ones for sale on eBay. Most are over $1K.

 

[Horatio]

That's cheap compared to the ones for sale on eBay. Most are over $1K.

That’s not one I’ve been following on auction.

 

[logan2z]

That’s not one I’ve been following on auction.

Me neither, except I happened to see a YouTube video today that mentioned the camera and so I decided to take a quick look on eBay. I was shocked to see what people are asking for it.

 

[mcrokkorx]

There are plenty of dramatic price increases on relatively common film camera models to complain about, but I'm not sure why Nikon FM3a price trends are surprising to anyone. It was never a bargain camera, not even during the great digital selloff market a decade ago. It was always a limited production, high-value, collectible trinket for Nikon enthusiasts pre-digital, now in the post-digital hipster-film era it has become iconic as the "ultimate evolution of the FM/FE concept". More for the trick electro-mechanical shutter promoted ad nauseam in countless youTube videos and blog posts than anything else: operationally the same camera is available as the much more affordable, common FE or FE2.

Of course that begs another question: why exactly the once-popular FE/FE2 are now frowned upon for having electronic shutters, while the equally electronic F3 (with its absurdly awful meter display) is still a highly prized cult item. I'd imagine the same answer applies as for the FM3a: mystique and status among increasing numbers of newly-active nostalgic older buyers and younger film newbies. Everyone else in the middle, who just find a particular camera best suits their work or shooting habits, is held hostage by these bookend groups avidly chasing fewer and fewer good surviving examples of these models.

eBay had an indirect hand in some of this pricing frenzy when they changed their rules just before the pandemic to totally obliterate private sellers once and for all. Everything remaining seems concentrated in the hands of Japanese dealers, with their ridiculous "MINT ++++++ (just a little rust on the mirror, missing battery cover and fungus forest in the prism)" condition ratings. If we didn't pick up the bulk of what we needed (or wanted to try out) by 5-8 years ago, obtaining it today will be a lot more stressful, a lot less fun, and way more expensive.