What causes paper's emulsion layer to peel?

[Roy Keane]

So I've been experimenting with this Bergger Semi Matt warmtone fb and some neutral glossy paper. Made some prints, washed them, did some spot reductions with farmer's reducer, refixed, re-hypo cleared, rewashed, then some selenium, re-hypo cleared, rewashed.

I noticed a couple of prints had some peeling from the emulsion before I laid them out to dry.

Have not seen this happen with the other papers I've used, but is there anything about that process that could be causing it?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Prolonged contact with strongly alkaline solutions and/ or lengthy wet times can cause problems of various sorts that aren't dissimilar to what you describe. How long were your wash steps?

 

[MattKing]

Thread moved into the Black and White sub-forum.

 

[MattKing]

Both bleaching and toning can result in softened emulsions.

 

[Roy Keane]

Wash cycles after hypo clearing were 25 minutes.

But some of the prints were in water for several hours as I built up enough to move to full washing, bleaching, and toning

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Whenever I get "peeling emulsion," it is usually just frilling along the print edges. Printing with a generous border keeps any frilling out of the image area. I trim to exact size later anyway with a rotary trimmer.

Keeping your wet times to a minimum helps.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Roy Keane]

Whenever I get "peeling emulsion," it is usually just frilling along the print edges. Printing with a generous border keeps any frilling out of the image area. I trim to exact size later anyway with a rotary trimmer.

Keeping your wet times to a minimum helps.

Best,

Doremus

For prints that I've fixed but haven't put through an archival wash cycle yet, I usually hold them in water. Would it be better to hang them up? I hate the idea of putting just one or two prints in this giant archival tub...but I hate the peeling emulsion more

 

[gone]

Several hours in the wash water shouldn't be too long, but it depends on the paper, and whether you had them in a holding tank for hours before finishing the print session. I was washing my FB papers way too much, and decided to go w/ a wash aid and Ilford's paper wash recommendations.

Now, when there's 4 or 5 exposed and fixed papers in the holding tank, they're taken out and washed, and within 30-40 minutes max they're off into the bathroom to be hung to dry. Then I might take a short break before going back to printing.

Believe me, this is way better than when I was making 10-15 prints in a session and had to deal w/ over a dozen papers at a time to wash and dry.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Is it all around the for edges, or just one, the side that was cut?
I had that happening too, sometimes, when I used a not sharp enough knife to cut the FB paper before using it, what was clearly sloppy by me...
This stoppend when I bought a new roller cutter (Rotatrim), and payed attention so that the edge didn't frill anymore.

 

[NB23]

You are describing what tends to happen to rc paper. I have never had separation with fb and had some with rc, mainly because of extra long time in water, extra being more than 24 hours.

Water too warm or 36+ hours in water will cause damage to fb paper.

Was any of your baths 30c+?

 

[Roy Keane]

Is it all around the for edges, or just one, the side that was cut?
I had that happening too, sometimes, when I used a not sharp enough knife to cut the FB paper before using it, what was clearly sloppy by me...
This stoppend when I bought a new roller cutter (Rotatrim), and payed attention so that the edge didn't frill anymore.

You might be on to something there. I think it might be around the edge that I cut. It's just on a single edge on the prints that had this happen.

 

[Roy Keane]

You are describing what tends to happen to rc paper. I have never had separation with fb and had some with rc, mainly because of extra long time in water, extra being more than 24 hours.

Water too warm or 36+ hours in water will cause damage to fb paper.

Was any of your baths 30c+?

The bath I was holding them in was not too warm, but the wash might have been warmer. I'll have to keep a closer eye on that.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Seems like you just need to leave a border and then trim later. I recommend Rotatrim cutters.

Best,

Doremus

 

[removed account4]

the only time I have had problems were with Ilford fb mg 5x7 paper, vintage probably 10-15 years ago. Ilford had no idea what caused it either.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Seems like you just need to leave a border and then trim later. I recommend Rotatrim cutters.

Best,

Doremus

Yes, the Rotatrim's are very good (and rather expensive).
But, as I mainly shoot, and by this compose, the square format, I print square, straight thus (I don't like the 2 by 3 ratio)...
As the 24cm x 30cm is my favorite paper format, I frame a 20cm x 20cm image on a 24cm x 24cm sheet, which leaves me with 6cm of surplus.
The 2cm border is for equilibrium and ease of holding the print.
So I cut off the extra 6cm and use it as a teststrip, by this I save some paper and the fixing bath lasts a little bit longer.