What causes paper's emulsion layer to peel?

Roy Keane · Nov 8, 2021

So I've been experimenting with this Bergger Semi Matt warmtone fb and some neutral glossy paper. Made some prints, washed them, did some spot reductions with farmer's reducer, refixed, re-hypo cleared, rewashed, then some selenium, re-hypo cleared, rewashed.

I noticed a couple of prints had some peeling from the emulsion before I laid them out to dry.

Have not seen this happen with the other papers I've used, but is there anything about that process that could be causing it?

Lachlan Young · Nov 8, 2021

Prolonged contact with strongly alkaline solutions and/ or lengthy wet times can cause problems of various sorts that aren't dissimilar to what you describe. How long were your wash steps?

MattKing · Nov 9, 2021

Thread moved into the Black and White sub-forum.

MattKing · Nov 9, 2021

Both bleaching and toning can result in softened emulsions.

Roy Keane · Nov 9, 2021

Wash cycles after hypo clearing were 25 minutes.

But some of the prints were in water for several hours as I built up enough to move to full washing, bleaching, and toning

Doremus Scudder · Nov 9, 2021

Whenever I get "peeling emulsion," it is usually just frilling along the print edges. Printing with a generous border keeps any frilling out of the image area. I trim to exact size later anyway with a rotary trimmer.

Keeping your wet times to a minimum helps.

Best,

Doremus

Roy Keane · Nov 9, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
Whenever I get "peeling emulsion," it is usually just frilling along the print edges. Printing with a generous border keeps any frilling out of the image area. I trim to exact size later anyway with a rotary trimmer.

Keeping your wet times to a minimum helps.

Best,

Doremus

For prints that I've fixed but haven't put through an archival wash cycle yet, I usually hold them in water. Would it be better to hang them up? I hate the idea of putting just one or two prints in this giant archival tub...but I hate the peeling emulsion more

gone · Nov 9, 2021

Several hours in the wash water shouldn't be too long, but it depends on the paper, and whether you had them in a holding tank for hours before finishing the print session. I was washing my FB papers way too much, and decided to go w/ a wash aid and Ilford's paper wash recommendations.

Now, when there's 4 or 5 exposed and fixed papers in the holding tank, they're taken out and washed, and within 30-40 minutes max they're off into the bathroom to be hung to dry. Then I might take a short break before going back to printing.

Believe me, this is way better than when I was making 10-15 prints in a session and had to deal w/ over a dozen papers at a time to wash and dry.

Philippe-Georges · Nov 10, 2021

Is it all around the for edges, or just one, the side that was cut?
I had that happening too, sometimes, when I used a not sharp enough knife to cut the FB paper before using it, what was clearly sloppy by me...
This stoppend when I bought a new roller cutter (Rotatrim), and payed attention so that the edge didn't frill anymore.

NB23 · Nov 10, 2021

You are describing what tends to happen to rc paper. I have never had separation with fb and had some with rc, mainly because of extra long time in water, extra being more than 24 hours.

Water too warm or 36+ hours in water will cause damage to fb paper.

Was any of your baths 30c+?

Roy Keane · Nov 10, 2021

Philippe-Georges said:
Is it all around the for edges, or just one, the side that was cut?
I had that happening too, sometimes, when I used a not sharp enough knife to cut the FB paper before using it, what was clearly sloppy by me...
This stoppend when I bought a new roller cutter (Rotatrim), and payed attention so that the edge didn't frill anymore.

You might be on to something there. I think it might be around the edge that I cut. It's just on a single edge on the prints that had this happen.

Roy Keane · Nov 10, 2021

NB23 said:
You are describing what tends to happen to rc paper. I have never had separation with fb and had some with rc, mainly because of extra long time in water, extra being more than 24 hours.

Water too warm or 36+ hours in water will cause damage to fb paper.

Was any of your baths 30c+?

The bath I was holding them in was not too warm, but the wash might have been warmer. I'll have to keep a closer eye on that.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 11, 2021

Seems like you just need to leave a border and then trim later. I recommend Rotatrim cutters.

Best,

Doremus

removed account4 · Nov 11, 2021

the only time I have had problems were with Ilford fb mg 5x7 paper, vintage probably 10-15 years ago. Ilford had no idea what caused it either.

Philippe-Georges · Nov 12, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
Seems like you just need to leave a border and then trim later. I recommend Rotatrim cutters.

Best,

Doremus

Yes, the Rotatrim's are very good (and rather expensive).
But, as I mainly shoot, and by this compose, the square format, I print square, straight thus (I don't like the 2 by 3 ratio)...
As the 24cm x 30cm is my favorite paper format, I frame a 20cm x 20cm image on a 24cm x 24cm sheet, which leaves me with 6cm of surplus.
The 2cm border is for equilibrium and ease of holding the print.
So I cut off the extra 6cm and use it as a teststrip, by this I save some paper and the fixing bath lasts a little bit longer.

What causes paper's emulsion layer to peel?

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What causes paper's emulsion layer to peel?

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