What bottles to store E6 kit chemistry?

[jtk]

In days of yore I'd just call the bicycle messenger and he'd accomplish same-day turn around (in San Francisco). Waiting for mail to get E6 out and back is plenty of reason to shoot digital EXCEPT that I like view camera movements and that slow workflow (sometimes).

I'm thinking about shooting some 4X5 E6....

What bottles do you use to store what E6 kit? I want good ones.

 

[mshchem]

I've used PET Gatoraid bottles. Concentrate of the color developer will crack PET. I have a bunch of HDPE Nalgene bottles I use.

 

[kevs]

I store black and white developer (ID-11) in plastic 500ml fizzy drink bottles. I've also used these for colour chems (E6, C-41) in the past. They are easily obtained and come filled with pop! Fill the bottles to the top, squeeze out excess air and check the caps are airtight. Some glass bottles might be good but cannot be squeezed. Avoid darkroom concertina bottles, they tend to be leaky (bt;dt). Also avoid milk bottles; air can bleed through the plastic (bt;dt).

 

[charlemagne]

HDPE: almost all the bottles that cantain chemicals in my darkroom are made of this stuff
FEP: for really nasty stuff
Glass

 

[awty]

For fresh chemicals I want to store I use glass bottle with a compression cap. You can use glass marbles or beads to displace the air. I keep the bottles in a large black plastic container to keep chemicals in and light out. For stuff I use up quickly I just use sauce bottles and squeeze out the air.
How are you going to process? I would imagine tray development would be hard work. Tank I think would be easier to maintain temp.

 

[AgX]

I've used PET Gatoraid bottles. Concentrate of the color developer will crack PET. I have a bunch of HDPE Nalgene bottles I use.

PET bottles are great, unless one fills them with alkali. About the critical strenght of alkali we got different experiences here.

 

[jtk]

For fresh chemicals I want to store I use glass bottle with a compression cap. You can use glass marbles or beads to displace the air. I keep the bottles in a large black plastic container to keep chemicals in and light out. For stuff I use up quickly I just use sauce bottles and squeeze out the air.
How are you going to process? I would imagine tray development would be hard work. Tank I think would be easier to maintain temp.

I have an Israeli tank that allows inversion (rubber lid).

What is a compression cap? Like for a slightly used bottle of wine ?

 

[awty]

I have an Israeli tank that allows inversion (rubber lid).

What is a compression cap? Like for a slightly used bottle of wine ?

I meant swing top as used by Grolsch beer (or used to be). You can get them at different sizes for a couple of dollars here.
Do you need to take the Israelis out of the tank first or do they help with agitation? I would imagine a SP-445 would be easier.
I haven't processed e6 yet and only roll film in c41, generally I stock pile the film and do a batch over a couple of weeks, so dont have any issue with chemistry going bad.

 

[AgX]

I meant swing top as used by Grolsch beer (or used to be). You can get them at different sizes for a couple of dollars here.

You mean the bottles. The swing-top caps are one size and and need a bottle with a resp. neck to accept them.

 

[John51]

My plan is order a Tetenal E6 kit and decant it into 24 x 100ml amber glass bottles. Overflow volume is 108ml so 4 full bottles for each part with 68ml left over. That 68ml makes 340ml of working solution and my Paterson Major II only needs 300ml for 120. I have extra reels so can I process 3 rolls one after the other.

The glass bottles will make 540ml of working solution. Enough for 6 rolls. 2 rolls to a reel (Super System 4) and 3 lots of processing. Not counting the decanting, all chems used to capacity within half a day of being opened. 27 rolls from a kit. Yet to be done by me so who knows?

The same principal should apply to 4x5, there will be suitable glass bottles for the volumes you want to use each session.

 

[Joel_L]

I use the brown Boston bottles with cone caps. I mostly use 32oz, 16oz, and 8oz bottles. So far chems keep a good long time.

 

[destroya]

I use empty wine bags that can be refilled. 1 to store my replenished working chems and then another for stock to use for replenishment. so far, over a year in no issues. easy to refill, easy to keep the air out and with the spout, easy to replenish. 6 bags with 1.6 liters for working and 6 3l bags for fresh chems. once every 6 months or so i have to refill the 3 liter bags

https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-...le&qid=1565061501&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmr0&th=1

 

[BMbikerider]

My plan is order a Tetenal E6 kit and decant it into 24 x 100ml amber glass bottles. Overflow volume is 108ml so 4 full bottles for each part with 68ml left over. That 68ml makes 340ml of working solution and my Paterson Major II only needs 300ml for 120. I have extra reels so can I process 3 rolls one after the other.

The glass bottles will make 540ml of working solution. Enough for 6 rolls. 2 rolls to a reel (Super System 4) and 3 lots of processing. Not counting the decanting, all chems used to capacity within half a day of being opened. 27 rolls from a kit. Yet to be done by me so who knows?

The same principal should apply to 4x5, there will be suitable glass bottles for the volumes you want to use each session.

This is more or less the storage principal which I use. However, there is something that you can do to exclude the oxygen from glass bottles, or at least most of it and I have followed this technique for years with C41 developer. Once the dilutions have been made, I place each of the bottles into the microwave and give them a blast to make them hot enough to feel moderately warm. (About 38/45 degrees C) A bit of experimenting with plain water will tell you how long to heat them. This allows the air at the top escape into the atmosphere. then quickly screw on the tops. When the bottles cool down, the lack of air (You won't get rid of it all) creates a partial vacuum.

It is more or less the same way that jars of jam are made to preserve the contents, which is why there is a 'pop' as you unscrew the tops and allow air into the vacuum.

Purists may start hand wringing projecting doom that this will make chemical the deteriorate. Well as far as I have found it makes not one little bit of difference. I am using home pre mixed Tetenal C41 developer that is close on a year old (I am getting towards the end of it) and even now it is just starting to discolour, but still very usable.

RA4 developer appears to be different and does not seem to need any extra treatment as it is so very stable so It is stored in glass until needed.

 

[mgb74]

This is more or less the storage principal which I use. However, there is something that you can do to exclude the oxygen from glass bottles, or at least most of it and I have followed this technique for years with C41 developer. Once the dilutions have been made, I place each of the bottles into the microwave and give them a blast to make them hot enough to feel moderately warm. (About 38/45 degrees C) A bit of experimenting with plain water will tell you how long to heat them. This allows the air at the top escape into the atmosphere. then quickly screw on the tops. When the bottles cool down, the lack of air (You won't get rid of it all) creates a partial vacuum.

It is more or less the same way that jars of jam are made to preserve the contents, which is why there is a 'pop' as you unscrew the tops and allow air into the vacuum.

Purists may start hand wringing projecting doom that this will make chemical the deteriorate. Well as far as I have found it makes not one little bit of difference. I am using home pre mixed Tetenal C41 developer that is close on a year old (I am getting towards the end of it) and even now it is just starting to discolour, but still very usable.

RA4 developer appears to be different and does not seem to need any extra treatment as it is so very stable so It is stored in glass until needed.

I question whether you are really eliminating any oxygen this way. You're causing the air to expand in the neck (by heating) and then allowing it to contract after being sealed. That doesn't mean the oxygen molecules are fewer. You are, however, achieving a better seal through the vacuum effect.

 

[AgX]

I question whether you are really eliminating any oxygen this way. You're causing the air to expand in the neck (by heating) and then allowing it to contract after being sealed. That doesn't mean the oxygen molecules are fewer. You are, however, achieving a better seal through the vacuum effect.

Before sealing, still at expanding, some air has left the bottle, due tio the expansion of the fluid as well as the air. As he said, he caps the bottle with the fluid and gas still warm. After cooling down this not only yields a tight fit of any seal, but also yields less air and thus less oxygen in that topping space.

 

[BMbikerider]

Before sealing, still at expanding, some air has left the bottle. As he said, he caps the bottle with the gas still warm. After cooling down this not only yields a tight fit of any seal, but also yields less air and thus less oxygen in that topping space.

Ah at least someone who understands my reasoning. Thanks AGX

(It does work though)

 

[mgb74]

Before sealing, still at expanding, some air has left the bottle, due tio the expansion of the fluid as well as the air. As he said, he caps the bottle with the fluid and gas still warm. After cooling down this not only yields a tight fit of any seal, but also yields less air and thus less oxygen in that topping space.

Sorry, still not buying this - in terms of oxygen - except in theory. If you heat air from 70 deg F to 100 deg F, you increase the volume just under 6%. Of course, you're also increasing the volume of the liquid - which forces air out - but liquids expand less than gas. So maybe you've gotten 10-15% of the air out and a corresponding amount of oxygen modules. I question whether that makes a material difference in longevity. And certainly not any better than just filling the container to the brim.

If you heat the solution to a higher temp, you'll get more air out, but at greater risk to the chemicals. When canning, you raise the temp of the contents to a much higher level, so the effect is much greater.

I do buy into the tight seal aspect.


(This info courtesy of my son's science project many years ago.)

 

[AgX]

Great that did you the math.
I did not say that that much air, resp. much oxygen would be driven out. I just explained that one is wrong if one thinks the gas volume shrinks again and no gas at all would be lost.

I remember using as child special rubber caps on common bottles when we made berry juice. The berries were cooked to make them crack, but also to kill germs, the juice was filled into the bottles, still hot and that rubber cap did its job. Similar when conserving whole fruits in glass pods with springloaded glass tops and rubber gasket. The pots were cooked in a kettle with their springloaded tops already seated. Again the vacuum did its job on the gasket.
I guess noboda then thought of any oxygen vanishing.

That vanishing I first heard of when here at Apug I learned of suctioning liquid filled bottles to reduce oxygen content in that air-filled top.

 

[BMbikerider]

Sorry, still not buying this - in terms of oxygen - except in theory. If you heat air from 70 deg F to 100 deg F, you increase the volume just under 6%. Of course, you're also increasing the volume of the liquid - which forces air out - but liquids expand less than gas. So maybe you've gotten 10-15% of the air out and a corresponding amount of oxygen modules. I question whether that makes a material difference in longevity. And certainly not any better than just filling the container to the brim.

If you heat the solution to a higher temp, you'll get more air out, but at greater risk to the chemicals. When canning, you raise the temp of the contents to a much higher level, so the effect is much greater.

I do buy into the tight seal aspect.

(This info courtesy of my son's science project many years ago.)

Irrespective of theories there is always one who will argue black is white. This system works. No if's or buts! Your reasoning is a theory, no more, no less; my findings are from actual practical experience.

The NOVA processor I use for colour printing works at 35 degrees C which is quite warm to the touch. At the end of the session, I clean everything down then after replacing the lids, I also cover the top of the processor with cling-film. If I make a good seal which isn't that difficult, when the liquid cools down the cling film can be seen to be stretched inwards to try and take up the space left by the contraction of the chemicals and air remaining in the system. Heat makes things expand - a proven physical property. If you then prevent air from returning from where it was displaced, you have a partial vacuum. This equals less air and consequently less oxygen to affect the developer.

I have done this with my NOVA for nearly 30 years and I have been able to use the same developing solution for up to 12 months with the recommended replenishment and only renewed it when I felt it was needed to clean out the tank. The bottles of C41 film developer are new and unused and kept in more tightly controlled conditions than the colour RA4 developer, so I knew it would work before I started treating them this way.

 

[peoplemerge]

I've tried some of the other methods, and totally agree with this --v

I use empty wine bags that can be refilled.

I buy the 3L variants, last time they cost $12 for 6. They hold more like a gallon.

Prior to this, I tried:
* reusing PET bottles (they need to be clean, you need to be careful with your technique on squeezing the air out, and be very, very obvious about labeling)
* using regular photo chem bottles (you can't squeeze the air out)
* using the brown accordion photo chem bottles (they get the air out, but only last a few refillings because they are impossible to clean properly)
* using photo chem bottles and displacing air with inert gas spray (the gas is expensive and doesn't fully displace unless you build yourself a tent, see posts by PE).

[ Of special note to labeling, I once stored stabilizer in distilled water jug, hurriedly noting one side. A month later, I had allergies and went to use a neti pot, and guess what. Trip to the doctor, MSDS says Tetenal stabilizer is Formaldehyde. ]

So when it comes to processing slides in E6, for me it's all about longevity of those chemicals, and repeatability of the process over a long time. To have your chemicals fail when processing film, that's a bitter pill to swallow. I mix the Tetenal kits using distilled water, process everything one-shot, and recently switched from hand processing to using a jobo and 1500 tanks for roll films (I plan to do sheets that way too using the non-expert tanks, just haven't gotten to it). Wine bags are a great solution to getting *all* of the air *completely* out: fill them, put the spout on, and holding it by the spout, let air out until you see the solution dribble out. Then I label them with permanent markers with the mix date and store the bags in small plastic rubbermaid storage boxes with the instructions.



Some pitfalls I've learned:
* If you are planning on reusing solutions, you have to pour them in and out every time. if you handle the bags a lot, the marker can rub off. Also getting the spouts on and off is a lot more annoying than good old caps one any other solution. So I just don't use them for anything I replenish.
* Out of 25 bags or so, I once had the spout on a bag with dektol leak. It was in a plastic storage box, but made a bit of a mess. Now, I store wine bags with spouts up instead of down.
* I wash, dry upside down, and reuse them a few times for Tetenal E6 color developer, blix replenishers, and use fresh bags each time for the first developer, because that's the super critical one you've really gotta nail. Perhaps I should for the CD as well, but the bags seem clean. I toss bags that look nasty, for example if they've had fix that has yellow sulfur precipitate. You could argue that's harder on the environment than photo chem bottles, but while the chem bottles might last 2-3 times as long (and still be clean), they require 2-3 times more plastic than these thin bags, so it's a wash if you ask me.

I don't store working solutions to replenish in them, like fixer and Kodak flexicolor bleach because air is good for bleach and fixer is cheap. Developer chemicals I absolutely use one-shot. Tetenal kits come with all solutions in a kit. The kit is about $70 for a 2.5L which is fairly pricey, so I want it to last. I was pretty pleased with how much the process cost while I was hand processing, but now with my last jobo run, I did 6 rolls of 120 in just 570ml, and the results were stunning.

A final note on durability, Tetenal manual says (for FD), freshly applied solution should last 8 weeks, 50% used 2 weeks, and opened concentrates 24 weeks. I was about to say I used chemicals way older than that successfully but after checking my notes, I can't back it up with hard data on Tetenal E6 kits. I remember being under pressure to shoot and process all the E6 at a shot in 2 weeks, and I'm happier not being under pressure to finish all of the chemicals that fast.

 

[firemachine69]

I question whether you are really eliminating any oxygen this way. You're causing the air to expand in the neck (by heating) and then allowing it to contract after being sealed. That doesn't mean the oxygen molecules are fewer. You are, however, achieving a better seal through the vacuum effect.

Yes, but keep in mind you are excluding new oxygen molecules to the batch by having an excellent seal.

 

[ts1000]

just researching this topic.
Has anybody used one of those wine bottle vacuum pumps /sealers (I see them on ebay, banggood, etc) ?
I am thinking they would work well with boston-round style clear glass bottles.

 

[Danner]

Realize this is an old thread. But, HDPE 'Nalgene bottles' are perfect, and you can find them on Amazon. From 1 oz. and larger.