What are those scratches and dust?

PaulYW · Jan 6, 2023

Hello. I'm processing some of B&W rolls from my customers and having issues such as scratches and dust that I don't usually have.

I processed two rolls for each time to match the film developing time.
I used ilfosol 3 and water bath and rapid Fixer and lastly, the final rinse and dry from the C41 processor. I replenished the fixer 50ml for each roll.
When I processed one old Tmax 100 film that was shot more than 20 years ago and Kentmere 100 that was shot recently, the old Tmax film was outstanding without any issues. But I'm seeing a lot of dust and scratches with Kentmere 100 film.

Did I mess something up? First photo is from HP5 that I processed today and second, third is from the Kentmere 100 roll.

Thank you.

koraks · Jan 7, 2023

It's hard to tell, but it looks like debris. Watch out in particular for limescale deposits/chunks in tap water and especially heated water systems.
I'd visually inspect the negatives with a good loupe or microscope to try and figure out what it is. Often, the shape and color of the deposits gives some clues.

PaulYW · Jan 11, 2023

koraks said:
It's hard to tell, but it looks like debris. Watch out in particular for limescale deposits/chunks in tap water and especially heated water systems.
I'd visually inspect the negatives with a good loupe or microscope to try and figure out what it is. Often, the shape and color of the deposits gives some clues.

Hello. I think i found the problem. It seems HP5 film and some B&W film can't take much heat from the dryer. I'm not sure how people process those films on their B&W processor though.

koraks · Jan 11, 2023

Ah, that sounds plausible. Sorry, I missed that you were running these through a processor.

Have you tried contacting Ilford about the issue? I'm not sure they have engineered their film to be compatible with a roller transport processor, which I suspect you're using (?) Since Kentmere is also produced by Harman, it wouldn't surprise me that the lack of optimization for this processing method would apply to both brands. It does explain why at least TMAX100 goes through fine, as it's probably the toughest emulsion I've ever put my hands on. It's also the only film I've used where it's actually challenging sometimes to tell which side is the emulsion side, especially on sheet film. It's so slick and hard!

foc · Jan 11, 2023

Are you processing the B&W film in a small tank on reels and then transferring them to a C41 machine final rinse and dryer (for example the B&W films spliced onto a leader card and put through C41 machine processor at last tank and then into the hot dryer)

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

PaulYW said:
Hello. I think i found the problem. It seems HP5 film and some B&W film can't take much heat from the dryer. I'm not sure how people process those films on their B&W processor though.

I hang the film to dry in the shower and close the shower door to cut down the air flow. I use a paper towel on the bottom corners to draw off the PhotoFlo & water.

PaulYW · Jan 11, 2023

koraks said:
Ah, that sounds plausible. Sorry, I missed that you were running these through a processor.

Have you tried contacting Ilford about the issue? I'm not sure they have engineered their film to be compatible with a roller transport processor, which I suspect you're using (?) Since Kentmere is also produced by Harman, it wouldn't surprise me that the lack of optimization for this processing method would apply to both brands. It does explain why at least TMAX100 goes through fine, as it's probably the toughest emulsion I've ever put my hands on. It's also the only film I've used where it's actually challenging sometimes to tell which side is the emulsion side, especially on sheet film. It's so slick and hard!

I haven't contacted Ilford about this. I think i should set the heater temperature down when i dry those film in this way. Or i should just use Photoflo and hang them and let them dry.

foc said:
Are you processing the B&W film in a small tank on reels and then transferring them to a C41 machine final rinse and dryer (for example the B&W films spliced onto a leader card and put through C41 machine processor at last tank and then into the hot dryer)

I used Filmomat for processing B&W films. After the fix and wash rinse, i attached the films on the leader card and put it into the first rack of the final rinse in the C-41 processor. It seems the final rinse temperature(38 celsius) also could damage the film. I think i should just dry the film in the cabinet or set the heater temperature down of the C-41 processor.

Sirius Glass said:
I hang the film to dry in the shower and close the shower door to cut down the air flow. I use a paper towel on the bottom corners to draw off the PhotoFlo & water.

I think i also need to dry the film like you did. Thank you.

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

Tsubasa said:
do you reuse the fixer?

I always reuse fixer ==> Color negatives, color slides, black & white film, color and black & white paper.

snusmumriken · Jan 11, 2023

PaulYW said:
Hello. I think i found the problem. It seems HP5 film and some B&W film can't take much heat from the dryer. I'm not sure how people process those films on their B&W processor though.

But how would heat cause this? I'm assuming that the images you posted are positives, so the spots do not transmit any light and are therefore dense particles. Would the emulsion melt in that way?

foc · Jan 11, 2023

PaulYW said:
I used Filmomat for processing B&W films. After the fix and wash rinse, i attached the films on the leader card and put it into the first rack of the final rinse in the C-41 processor. It seems the final rinse temperature(38 celsius) also could damage the film. I think i should just dry the film in the cabinet or set the heater temperature down of the C-41 processor.

I tried what you were doing, many years ago (I owned a minilab for many years) to try and speed up the B&W processing times and I got exactly what you got.
No matter what I tried I couldn't get rid of the spots and marks. So I gave that idea up and returned to the normal way of drying B&W negatives.

250swb · Jan 12, 2023

I think heat in the dryer is a fantasy explanation, unless the dryer is pumping out dust, have the filters been changed recently? But it's dust from somewhere, no good asking Ilford, they don't know your darkroom. I doubt it's exhausted/contaminated fixer unless the film hasn't been washed. You know the drivers explanation for a crash 'I've been coming around that corner at 60mph everyday for thirty years so I have no explanation why would I crash today?' Well this is the photographers equivalent, something somehow has changed in the darkroom.

PaulYW · Jan 12, 2023

snusmumriken said:
But how would heat cause this? I'm assuming that the images you posted are positives, so the spots do not transmit any light and are therefore dense particles. Would the emulsion melt in that way?

Hello. I'm not sure. But I processed HP5 again and dried it in the cabinet. I had no problem at this time.

foc said:
I tried what you were doing, many years ago (I owned a minilab for many years) to try and speed up the B&W processing times and I got exactly what you got.
No matter what I tried I couldn't get rid of the spots and marks. So I gave that idea up and returned to the normal way of drying B&W negatives.

Have you tried to turn down the heat temp? It seems it could be helpful.

Tsubasa said:
I was asking the op because to me the damage could be a contaminated fixer...

Hi. Yes i replenish the fixer 50ml for each roll whenever i process B&W and ECN-2. I processed HP5 again and let it dry in the cabinet and had no problem though.

250swb said:
I think heat in the dryer is a fantasy explanation, unless the dryer is pumping out dust, have the filters been changed recently? But it's dust from somewhere, no good asking Ilford, they don't know your darkroom. I doubt it's exhausted/contaminated fixer unless the film hasn't been washed. You know the drivers explanation for a crash 'I've been coming around that corner at 60mph everyday for thirty years so I have no explanation why would I crash today?' Well this is the photographers equivalent, something somehow has changed in the darkroom.

Hi. I'm not sure the fixer is exhausted. I process 4 rolls each time using 500ml fixer and after the process, i replenish 200ml. I will shoot hp5 and test this film with the dryer again.

Brad Deputy · Jan 12, 2023

ECN-2? How are you removing the RemJet? I can't help getting that crud everywhere working with it. Perhaps it's getting into some of the chems?

MattKing · Jan 12, 2023

250swb said:
I think heat in the dryer is a fantasy explanation, unless the dryer is pumping out dust, have the filters been changed recently?

Dust in the air probably doesn't adhere to the film if the film is air dried.
But if the air is heated and blown at the film the chance of the dust adhering increases greatly.
And as for differences between the results with T-Max and Kentmere, it wouldn't surprise me if T-Max was designed with high volume commercial processors in mind - some of which do/did employ heat to speed drying.
The Kentmere is a newer film and designed to be less expensive. That may have included compromises that make it less resistant to heat.

foc · Jan 13, 2023

PaulYW said:
Have you tried to turn down the heat temp? It seems it could be helpful.

Just to confirm, when you process C41 films through your leader card machine, you DON'T get the marks.

BUT you do get the marks when you splice your B&W films to a leader card and manually feed the card into the rinse tank and dryer?

Have you checked and cleaned the air intake filter in the machine's dryer recently?

PaulYW · Jan 13, 2023

Brad Deputy said:
ECN-2? How are you removing the RemJet? I can't help getting that crud everywhere working with it. Perhaps it's getting into some of the chems?

I use Prebath first. The chemicals for ECN-2 and B&W is different. After the ECN-2 process i also clean the film to make sure there is no residue.

foc said:
Just to confirm, when you process C41 films through your leader card machine, you DON'T get the marks.

BUT you do get the marks when you splice your B&W films to a leader card and manually feed the card into the rinse tank and dryer?

Have you checked and cleaned the air intake filter in the machine's dryer recently?

Hello. Yes I had no single C-41 film with problem before. I also dry ECN-2 films in this way and no problems neither.
There are pattern of marks in the B&W films. I didn't even know there is a filter in the dryer. I just change and wash chemical filters weekly.

Peltigera · Jan 13, 2023

You say you are developing these for your customer. I would look to what the customer has done.

I collect old cameras and these images look very much like what I get with the first film through a new acquisition of an old camera. When you wind-on the film, a very small static charge is formed on the film and this will attract lurking dust inside the camera body. This happens regardless of how well I clean inside the camera.

The 20 year old film would have been exposed in a new and regularly used camera. The Kentmere through a camera that has not been used for 20 years.

koraks · Jan 13, 2023

Peltigera said:
a very small static charge is formed on the film and this will attract lurking dust inside the camera body.

I'd expect this to result in minus density defects, not visually opaque ones.
Also, in my experience, dust that adheres to the film at time of exposure tends not to cling to the film during wet processing.

foc · Jan 14, 2023

PaulYW said:
I didn't even know there is a filter in the dryer.

What make and model of film processor are you using?

PaulYW · Jan 21, 2023

Peltigera said:
You say you are developing these for your customer. I would look to what the customer has done.

I collect old cameras and these images look very much like what I get with the first film through a new acquisition of an old camera. When you wind-on the film, a very small static charge is formed on the film and this will attract lurking dust inside the camera body. This happens regardless of how well I clean inside the camera.

The 20 year old film would have been exposed in a new and regularly used camera. The Kentmere through a camera that has not been used for 20 years.

I shot and tested processing a roll of HP5 and the result is almost the same.

foc said:
What make and model of film processor are you using?

It's a Noritsu V100.

foc · Jan 21, 2023

PaulYW said:
I shot and tested processing a roll of HP5 and the result is almost the same.

It's a Noritsu V100.

I am not familiar with the exact working of that machine, but there should be an air filter at the air intake in the dryer. It is usually a simple square of light sponge that can be washed under a running tap, squeezed dry, and then replace.

The dryer is at the opposite end of the film loading, you should be able to spot the air intake fairly easily.

Have a look here for the Noritsu manuals
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/62802743/v-series-ser

What are those scratches and dust?

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