What are these marks ?

[lhalcong]

I processed two rolls of 35mm color negative film in Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fresh well kept batch. One roll was Fuji Pro 160S (2+ years expired) and the other one was Kodak Ektar 100 fresh. Processed in small 2 Reel Patterson tank, the fuji film came out fine and the Ektar 100 has these marks. (see attached jpg files). Had both of the films had the same marks, I would have concluded that it was processing problem. But since one is good, I am not sure what happened to the Ektar ?.
I processed Ektar before with no problems. I also make certain that both films are completely summerged in 500ml of Kodak C-41.

The marks are completely random and absolutely all the picture frames in the entire roll have them. If film is observed at an angle under the light with the emulsion side up, I can see tiny dots on the film.....

on IMG026.jpg you can appreciate how inside the marks , there are appreciable crack-like lines forming a pattern...

 

[Light Guru]

The marks are completely random and absolutely all the picture frames in the entire roll have them. If film is observed at an angle under the light with the emulsion side up, I can see tiny dots on the film.....

It looks to me that the film did not dry evenly. The spots would be from liquid left on the film that dried after the rest of the film.

Did you wipe as much water as you could off the film before letting it dry?
How are you drying your film?

To try and get rid of the spots you could try and re wash and re dry.

 

[DanielStone]

In my experience, these don't look like water marks, but residual crystalized chemistry particulate(not completely into solution).

Look at your negatives at an angle, and see if there is residual marks/residue on the base(glossy) or emulsion(matte) side of the film. If it's only on the surface, gently clean the film and see if that solves your problem. If it was air bells, the marks would be more round(since bubbles are generally round, in my experience).

Question:
Has this chemistry sat around for a while since you mixed it(or last used it, more importantly mixed it up though)? If so, I've found C-41 chemistry(particularly developer and fixer) to precipitate out. Re-heating(above 100F) and given a good shaking/stirring usually does the trick. This is where a heated base magnetic stirrer does wonders for one's schedule !

If you have some single-use coffee strainers(cone shaped paper ones), or cotton balls(high quality ones, very dense ones from the chemist/pharmacy/doctor), strain ALL of your chemistry(washing funnel/transfer containers/tools between chemistry).

If this doesn't solve your problem, mix new chemistry all together and re-test.

-Dan

 

[gone]

I was going to say drying marks too, but I suspect Daniel is correct. I sometimes get odd stuff on the negs, and it nearly always comes down to crap floating around in the tank. The suggestion to filter everything is an excellent one. I would only add that you should always use distilled water for everything if you're having these issues. If nothing else, filtering and extreme cleanness will eliminate a lot of variables, but I think it will also solve your problem. Beautiful shots by the way.

 

[BMbikerider]

I have seen something like these before and the slight orange tinge suggests to me that there may have been microscopic iron particulates in the water which oxidized (rusted) when the film was drying. That is what the diagnosis was when I last saw anything like them. Fitting a water filter stopped it completely. Actually the amount of dirt in drinking water is amazing!

 

[DanielStone]

I have seen something like these before and the slight orange tinge suggests to me that there may have been microscopic iron particulates in the water which oxidized (rusted) when the film was drying. That is what the diagnosis was when I last saw anything like them. Fitting a water filter stopped it completely. Actually the amount of dirt in drinking water is amazing!

That's a good theory, however, if those iron particles did indeed rust out, then they would go blue(ish) in the scan, since the colors get inverted(maybe even canceled due to the orange mask layer).

The orange "halo" effect surrounding the particulate might be a result of the way the light diffuses out when going through the particulates stuck on the film. Similar to when you make color contact sheets and the negatives(especially in high contrast areas, like trees agains white/light blue sky, or on the edges of the frame) get a brown/reddish 'halo' around the edges when sandwiched agains the paper, under the glass. I'm sure many who have made contact sheets in their homes can attest to this anomaly. Scattered light really, really becomes a pain-in-the-you-know-what when you like "pretty" contact sheets

A proper 5-micron in-line filter w/ user-replaceable filters can be purchased for this purpose. Change the filters as needed(most filter systems are clear, so you can see how dirty the filters are).
Not very expensive, and 1-micron filters are also available(albeit vastly much more expensive).

My solution was to use DISTILLED water, about 85¢/gal here in LA to mix developer, bleach and final-rinse/stabilizer steps. This way it solves the issue, and is dirt-cheap compared to re-shooting(usually not repeatable unless shooting in-studio still lifes of blocks or something non-living )

-Dan

 

[AgX]

The shape of these marks made me think at first insdtance of some transparent flitter layed down on the film.
However the fact that these marks at average have lower density speaks against that.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

I was going to say drying marks too, but I suspect Daniel is correct. I sometimes get odd stuff on the negs, and it nearly always comes down to crap floating around in the tank. The suggestion to filter everything is an excellent one. I would only add that you should always use distilled water for everything if you're having these issues. If nothing else, filtering and extreme cleanness will eliminate a lot of variables, but I think it will also solve your problem. Beautiful shots by the way.

It's always the nice ones which get screwed up...

It looks to me like some sort of film or coating has flaked off the inside of the tank and stuck to the neg.s.

 

[AgX]

Yes, but that makes no sense. See my my post above yours.

puzzled...

Well, as long those flakes would not have a chemical effect on density . Far fetched though.

 

[winger]

From what I can see, I agree with Daniel. They look crystalline to me. Maybe something had been in solution but precipitated back out (or something got in and made something precipitate out that shouldn't have).
And, yes, it's always the best ones - I love the 026 one.

 

[Napoleon]

Look like water or chemical stains.

 

[AgX]

The shape of these marks made me think at first insdtance of some transparent flitter layed down on the film.
However the fact that these marks at average have lower density speaks against that.

Well for unknown reasons (being able to read would be a benefit...) I was in the belief that this was reversal processed.

As negative the lesser density of those patches can of course be explained by such flakes!

 

[lhalcong]

if particles existed, Why would only one film be affected. ? if you read my post , the other film came out all-right... by they way, I always use destilled water for all my chemicals and this was a well kept fresh mix of C-41. Additionally, I processed two more rolls after these on the same batch of chemicals and they came out fine too. I think that rules out the particles... doesn't it ? I did not re-wash but I cleaned the film with film cleaner and that did not eliminate the marks.

 

[AgX]

-) those flakes are the best explanation so far for these marks.
The shape of these marks rather excludes other causes.

-) they could haven been washed out in that run, thus not affecting the subsequent one

-) that they only affected one film and not the other in the same tank?
Maybe different attractivity of the different emulsions of these different films. Though I'm not even convinced that those flakes just could have laid down and kept stuck during processing time. More likely to me is the situation of taking out the reels. That might have affected just one reel.


I admit though: This all is a bit like tea-leaves reading.

 

[AgX]

Could flakes of emulsion been laid upon one film by means of a wiper or sponge having them rubbed off bevore in a preceeding session or from the preceeding film from the same session?

 

[lhalcong]

Could flakes of emulsion been laid upon one film by means of a wiper or sponge having them rubbed off bevore in a preceeding session or from the preceeding film from the same session?

I do not wipe the film, I just hang them to dry. ( I stopped doing that because of tendency to scratch). So nothing could've been rubbed off from the other film. Also, This was the first session of the day so nothing preceeding.