What am i doing (less) wrong?

[TattyJJ]

I had another evening in the darkroom, not as long as i'd like but better than nothing!

I did a few of the experiments that were discussed, it soon became clear where the issue was.
The paper i used last time i bought second hand, i knew it was a bit on the old side and a bit of a risk, but it was also REALLY cheap so figured was worth a punt.
It very soon became apparent the issue was with the paper. I also had a brand new pack of 5x7 Kentmere, when i tried that the difference was obvious.
I did lots of tests using different filters, found a Kodak exposure scale thing and boy did that make things easier. Discovered the little swing in filter could be popped out its frame, then i could just rest the graded filters on top.

I had to go all the way up to #5 to get anything reasonable out of the old paper. It's not too bad imo, but there is no proper white in the highlights, plus one look at the border gives it away!
The print on the new paper was done with a #3.5 filter, I'm VERY happy with how it came out

If anyone knows how the old paper could maybe be recovered, i dunno, different developer or something that'd be awesome! I've 400 sheets of the damn stuff so be a real shame for it to go to waste, though i've not tried the second pack yet, it's a different make so might fair better...

Moral of the story, don't skimp on paper!

 

[TattyJJ]

My biggest fault i think would be it looks a little too soft, i'm wondering if the focus was a bit out?

 

[removed account4]

the problem with using old paper and film &c, when first starting out
is that you have no idea if any or all of your troubles are user error from inexperience
or faulty products. the best thing to do is use fresh paper, fresh film, fresh chemistry every time
you expose, develop and print, until you know the ropes ... which, by the looks of it it seems like you know what you are up to
kodak stopped making paper more than 10 years ago, probably closer to 12-15 years ago. so i would stay far away from
kodak papers unless they it is AZO paper you are using .. you can't enlarge on it, its a contact printing paper and has an extremely long shelf life.
someone will probably give you a anti fogging chemical ( benzotriazole ) ..

good luck with your experiments !
john

 

[pentaxuser]

With 400 sheets I'd use the anti-age-fogging chemical benzotriazole. Your borders look like mine did from old Agfa MCP paper and a heavy dose of benzo got rid of the grey borders.

Do a google search or an APUG search and you'll get plenty of information

pentaxuser

 

[Huub]

You could also get yourself a bottle of potassium ferricyanide, to bleach the high lights a bit. This can also be used on the prints you already made. After the bleach you will need to refix and wash them. Do a bit of testing, as it will depend on temperature and dillution how fast the stuff will work.

 

[tezzasmall]

I've always read that a 1% / weak solution of Benzotriazole in the developer helps get rid of a general fog / greyness in prints. I bought some to try with some old papers but haven't tried it yet. I got mine off of ebay and the cheapest I could see at the moment is £10 including p/p at:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Benzotria...049042?hash=item3610521612:g:OWgAAOSwUKxYdQML

And the previous poster is correct in using a bleach AFTER you have developed and fixed etc a print.

Terry S

 

[TattyJJ]

The old paper used above is Ilford Multigrade, the other pack I've yet to try is Jessops.

Got some Benzotriazole on it's way to me now, was getting some bits on ebay so chucked it in too. Will also come in handy for some old film I'm working with.

Would using a bleach not also lighten the blacks to more of a dark grey?

 

[MattKing]

The old paper used above is Ilford Multigrade

Show us a picture of the package/box labeling, so we can get a sense of which version, and therefor approximately how old it might be.
If there is an indication of who produced it (Ilford Imaging or??) please include.
If it is Multigrade RC III, it is old.

 

[pentaxuser]

My experience with old paper such as MGIII is that while you can usually get rid of most of the age-fog with a heavy dose of benzo you cannot restore the loss of contrast and I suspect this may be the main problem.

You may enjoy experimenting with benzo and trying to learn printing with old paper that is now likely to be permanently "damaged" in terms of being capable to producing top class prints or even "good" prints. That's fine but if you are looking to make good prints and enjoy learning about how to print then I'd get a new or nearly new pack of paper. 5x7 is all you need. A 100 sheet box can be had for around £20.

pentaxuser

 

[pbromaghin]

Wow, great job helping this guy, everybody. This is APUG at its best.

 

[MattKing]

Would using a bleach not also lighten the blacks to more of a dark grey?

Bleach lightens the highlights more than the shadows.
But pentaxuser is correct - the contrast deterioration is just about impossible to reverse.
You can use some of the old paper for those situations which require low contrast.

 

[TattyJJ]

Show us a picture of the package/box labeling, so we can get a sense of which version, and therefor approximately how old it might be.
If there is an indication of who produced it (Ilford Imaging or??) please include.
If it is Multigrade RC III, it is old.

Pic below... Indeed it is Multigrade RC III hopefully the Jessops will be better!

My experience with old paper such as MGIII is that while you can usually get rid of most of the age-fog with a heavy dose of benzo you cannot restore the loss of contrast and I suspect this may be the main problem.

You may enjoy experimenting with benzo and trying to learn printing with old paper that is now likely to be permanently "damaged" in terms of being capable to producing top class prints or even "good" prints. That's fine but if you are looking to make good prints and enjoy learning about how to print then I'd get a new or nearly new pack of paper. 5x7 is all you need. A 100 sheet box can be had for around £20.

pentaxuser

This is what i noticed, i had to go all the way up to a #5 filter to get the contrast, but the fog just ruined the highlights.
It might well prove itself more useful for experimenting and just general messing about.
I do have a bog box of brand new Kentmere 5x7, that is what the better looking print above was done with, the difference is HUGE

Wow, great job helping this guy, everybody. This is APUG at its best.

Indeed, and it is much appreciated!


Even though the fog cant likely be removed to an acceptable level, i'm gonna want to practice with things like dodging and burning and split grade printing. I'm going to get threw quite a lot of paper figuring out what i'm doing, if nothing else it will be good to practice with

 

[TattyJJ]

I read somewhere that paper from the middle of the pack might be better than the outer ones?
I also read that old fogged papers could possibly be used for lith printing?

Any truth to these??

 

[pentaxuser]

It depends on the age of the Jessops paper but my experience with secondhand purchases of Jessops paper has been quite good. While Jessops paper ceased production several years ago when Jessops went into liquidation I think it is most unlikely or even impossible to be anywhere near as old as Ilford MGIII so it should be a lot better.

My understanding is that for a period Jessops paper was made for it by Agfa. Mine all seem to conform to the old Afga dual Y and M filtration for the correct grades.
Jessops paper is fine with Ilford MG filters but you may find that you get the same contrast with lower grade filters i.e. if a print looks right with Ilford grade 3 then the Jessops might be fine with grade 2.5.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record you may find that getting correct feedback from paper as old as MGIII when you try dodging and burning, bleaching or simply experimenting with grades, is nearly impossible so the stuff can actually be a hindrance to learning. You might be in danger of drawing the wrong conclusions from the experiment.


pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

I read somewhere that paper from the middle of the pack might be better than the outer ones?
I also read that old fogged papers could possibly be used for lith printing?

Any truth to these??

Correct - emphasis on "might" and "possibly".

For checking sharpness and composition - the paper is probably usable.
For split grade printing? It will just screw up your learning.
It is much the same for learning about dodging and burning, because the contrast problems will really change how dodging and burning affect the image.

One thing that some people may suggest is using it for low contrast contact proof sheets. I don't like that approach, because I believe that one of the advantages of contact proof sheets done properly is that they give you information about exposure and contrast. The old paper will screw that up.

Your paper would be usable by carbon printers - if fixed out first.

 

[TattyJJ]

Fair enough... I'll do some tests with the Benzotriazole, but if it's still to foggy will just keep it to one side till i can find a better use for it.
Hopefully the Jessops with be useable, or at least not as bad.

I do have a new pack small 25 sheet pack of 8x10, i'm reluctant to use it till i'm confident i can get good prints though. The prices get steep as the size goes up!

Within a month or so will hopefully be doing this all at home. Will be much easier to make progress then, at the moment it's once a week for an evening. Makes progress annoyingly slow!!

 

[MattKing]

The prices get steep as the size goes up

Try cutting the 8x10s into two 5x8s.

 

[pentaxuser]

If the paper is age-fogged as opposed to light-fogged then it seems unlikely or maybe impossible that the papers in the middle wil be any better but give a middle sheet a try. You'll discover whether I am right or not and it will cost only one print's absorption of dev, stop and fix which is a small price for a personal discovery. Personal discoveries are valuable in printing or indeed anything else to do with darkroom work.

pentaxuser

 

[M Carter]

I have to agree with the false-economy posts - beating yourself up with old paper when you're starting out - you're going to get great at getting acceptable prints from fogged paper, which isn't really a greatly useful skill unless you're locked in a castle on the island of old paper.

If any of your old paper is useful for lith or bromoil (fog & contrast issues more moot), pass it on to one of those guys. Get good materials to learn with - just my .02.

 

[tezzasmall]

You can of course use out of date and fogged papers for 'Lumen prints', which is basically placing items on the paper and leaving it all in the sun, to which you end up with COLOUR prints. It's something I've read about a lot and also having some very fogged and old paper, I am looking forward to trying it when the sun / summer arrives.

Terry S

 

[TattyJJ]

Colour from B&W paper?!

 

[winger]

Here's a lumen print - they're more like photograms with bits of color than color pictures.

 

[TattyJJ]

Intersting, VERY interesting!

 

[tezzasmall]

Intersting, VERY interesting!

Very much so - that's why I also want to have a go with my 1. out dated and 2. probably fogged packets of paper that I've picked up cheaply, bought especially to do things like this with.

Not sure if there's a folder to put pics like this in = note to self to have a look.

Terry S

 

[Hekoru]

You can try lith prints. I use very old Agfa Brovira with good results. Here's one example:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hekoru/28941861246/in/dateposted-public/