what about Oriental Seagull paper?

[Martin Reed]

Anyone in the UK using it ??
It used to be about the most expensive paper over here.
Made in Japan I think. I only ever used it very briefly for lith work and it was gorgeous ! Gave much gentler lith look which I really liked.
I think when it first came out it was called Seagull, then the company went under, resurfaced and produced it again but was named Oriental ?
Silverprint was the main stockist over here but it disappeared never to be seen again. I assumed it was out of production
Bill

Well this is the entire & utter history of Seagull in the UK as I recall it. Oriental was the manufacturer, Seagull the brand-name, they did make several other papers but none of the same stature. We started Silverprint off with Oriental Seagull, which hadn't been previously been brought into the UK, although it had been made since 1967. It went well, boosted by the great reputation it was acquiring in the States, and Mike Spry at Downtown Darkroom made the discovery that it worked well in lith - Oriental themselves were unaware of this.

When Oriental went into administration (in 1997?) there was a period where it was unavailable. When the new Oriental company was established we found all previous agency agreements had been torn up, and the company wanted large distributors that covered plenty of ground to handle it - this ended up in the UK as Calumet. There ensued a period where they made a total hash of it, but Silverprint was at least able to purchase it as a dealer. Mr Cad did so also, so distribution was working reasonably well when the new company called it a day (about 2000?). Mr Cad bought a lot of old stock from Calumet, and was the last source before it dried up.

The manufacturing plant was closed, but a bought-in paper is still being sold as 'Oriental Seagull'. This does not lith, is not the same specification as the original, and can be sourced in the original manufacturers packaging much more cheaply. Which is why, at Silverprint, we stopped dealing with it.

Even if the manufacturers had not had financial problems, though, Seagull might have had to cease. It's performance was certainly linked to a high cadmium usage in the emulsion, so H&S would probably have got it in the end. It keeps very well, though, Mike Spry is still using it for Anton Corbijns lith prints!

 

[PHOTOTONE]

The manufacturing plant was closed, but a bought-in paper is still being sold as 'Oriental Seagull'. This does not lith, is not the same specification as the original, and can be sourced in the original manufacturers packaging much more cheaply. Which is why, at Silverprint, we stopped dealing with it.

In the USA, the Seagull (labeled) papers are cheaper than Ilford and Foma..so who is the manufacturer of the paper labeled as Oriental Segull??

 

[Martin Reed]

In the USA, the Seagull (labeled) papers are cheaper than Ilford and Foma..so who is the manufacturer of the paper labeled as Oriental Segull??

It's quite a short list of candidates now. Perhaps of note that Ilford (Harman) who once professed vehemently that they were not 'own label' manufacturers are now in the business of doing special blends, eg the Bergger arrangement.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

..Perhaps of note that Ilford (Harman) who once professed vehemently that they were not 'own label' manufacturers are now in the business of doing special blends, eg the Bergger arrangement.

I don't think Ilford ever said that. What Simon has posted is that Ilford will no longer provide its own standard products for sale under other brand names. It does, however, custom manufacture on contract to others' specifications for products which are then sold under those sellers' brand names.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

So then there were three generations of Oriental Seagull? The paper Adams used in the 1980s, another paper made from around 1997-2000, and then this newest paper which is made by someone else?

I'm guessing that the last version I tested was probably of the 1997-2000 vintage.

 

[Martin Reed]

So then there were three generations of Oriental Seagull? The paper Adams used in the 1980s, another paper made from around 1997-2000, and then this newest paper which is made by someone else?

I'm guessing that the last version I tested was probably of the 1997-2000 vintage.

No, only two, the Seagull made by the Mk 2 company after the hiatus in production was unchanged from the original. Only the packaging changed, originally the 50's were in a blue box, and the 10's in an amazing silver metallic envelope that looked very expensive to produce. The later material was packed in white with black printing.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Thanks for the info. So I guess I haven't tested the latest version, and maybe shouldn't be surprised that the version I tested didn't seem radically different from the stuff I'd used in the 1980s, though I didn't have the two to compare side by side (and in any case, the older paper would have been way past date by then).

 

[Chuck_P]

At one time, this used to be the "ultimate" b/w paper for many. I, however, have never tried the fibre based Oriental Seagull papers.

I purchased a box of glossy Oriental Seagull VC FB II simply because it was not as expensive as the Iford's glossy MG IV FB. For a side by side comparison, to me, the Ilford was much better, primarily because surface differences. Ilford's was much smoother, with a more glossy appearence, even noticable by the touch.

Chuck

 

[PHOTOTONE]

I don't think Ilford ever said that. What Simon has posted is that Ilford will no longer provide its own standard products for sale under other brand names. It does, however, custom manufacture on contract to others' specifications for products which are then sold under those sellers' brand names.

Right, they said they would never again sell their Ilford brand films and papers under private label. They NEVER said they would not make products for private label. In fact, of course, as you stated they currently make the Bergger products, they provide Kentmere products under private label to Freestyle in the USA, and they "MAY" be the supplier of Oriental, but I don't know.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I am trying to purchase a good lithable paper .. rolls 42inch by 100ft, willing to place a 10 roll order today.

I placed this order one year ago with fotospeed my first choice, to no avail.
I really liked Maco RF g2 but am unsure if that paper is made now.
I really liked Oriental g4 but not sure now if this is the same paper I lithed with up until early this year.

I have to say this , who, what , where , how much, nonsense that is surrounding BW papers today is extremely upsetting.

All I want to do is make some large f... lith prints and I really at a loss as to what is what any more with larger roll paper.

Whats the big secret??

 

[Martin Reed]

I am trying to purchase a good lithable paper .. rolls 42inch by 100ft, willing to place a 10 roll order today.

I placed this order one year ago with fotospeed my first choice, to no avail.
I really liked Maco RF g2 but am unsure if that paper is made now.
I really liked Oriental g4 but not sure now if this is the same paper I lithed with up until early this year.....

There aren't many options now, but have you tested any of the Fomatone papers? There's no direct replacement for Seagull, but they react well to lith, see previous comments in another thread. Although we stopped stocking 40" rolls in Fomatone as they weren't turning over, Foma are quite prepared to pack them for a 10 roll order.

 

[2F/2F]

Bob,

Freestyle has Emaks in large rolls....I think they are 42". They claim it works well with lith printing.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thanks Guys

I used the emaks for a job for Guillume Zillio recently and really liked the paper , it was 42inch but in very small length 32ft.. the paper when packaged like this is extremely curly and even with two of us man handling the paper , it was very dicey.. I can't imagine how lith would be easier as one of the key elements to avoid flow patterns is to get the paper completely wet very fast.

Long roll 100ft and more does not curl anywhere near as much and is in my game plan. I will give fototome papers a try Martin , any suggestions which one??
Also I will look into whether emaks lith wells , Guillume left a bit of paper here so I can try it, but I will definately need long rolls for the curling problem with large sheets.

I have clients ready to go with huge lith prints 30x40 and 40 x 60 inches and absolutely no idea what paper to use.

 

[2F/2F]

Too bad about the curl.

I have got around horrible curling by flattening paper. I had some old DuPont paper (at least 60 years old) that was rolled up like a scroll when I got it. I flattened it out and put some books on top of it in the box (tall 250-sheet box), and then put the box under some other books. I let it sit for a few days in a dark cabinet in my darkroom. It worked very well. You could cut your roll into sheets as soon as you get it and do this. It would probably work even better with fresh Emaks, but you would need to build a custom box for it. You could probably find large boxes from an art supplies wholesaler.

 

[dancqu]

the paper when packaged like this is extremely curly and
even with two of us man handling the paper , it was very dicey..

I have clients ready to go with huge lith prints 30x40 and
40 x 60 inches and absolutely no idea what paper to use.

A lot of research has gone into the relaxing of curled and
folded papers. One approach is humidification. As the paper
absorbs water the fibers relax. An inclosed chamber with
water and material support makes for a basic humidor.

Could be worth the ground work. Via Google search
for, humidor documents . I'll check again myself as
even small sheets can have warp problems. Dan

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Bub,

It's not Guillume Zillio but Guillaume Zuili !
Too much sepia toner fume...or what !
Try Emak on lith with my leftover. You should give a try with Fomatone too.

Bye Bub...

 

[Mark Fisher]

Love Oriental VC and the warmtone version (it liths very nicely). It is the paper I am standardizing on. Prints nice, low price....and I like it's glossy surface.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sorry I was writing in my native tongue Mornonica.
I am going to give it a try, could you phone where you ordered and ask them about 100ft or larger rolls.
thanks.
get back into the darkroom and stop bothering me.

Bub,

It's not Guillume Zillio but Guillaume Zuili !
Too much sepia toner fume...or what !
Try Emak on lith with my leftover. You should give a try with Fomatone too.

Bye Bub...

 

[Andrew Moxom]

Mark, can you post some examples of the Oriental VC and WT papers in lith? I tried the newer WT VC paper and it well.....sucked. I'd be interested to know what you are doing to make it work.

Thanks

 

[dancqu]

A lot of research has gone into the relaxing of curled and
folded papers. One approach is humidification. As the paper
absorbs water the fibers relax. An inclosed chamber with
water and material support makes for a basic humidor.

Could be worth the ground work. Via Google search
for, humidor documents . I'll check again myself as
even small sheets can have warp problems. Dan

A better search via Google is, humidifying paper .
Doing so is apparently Big business.

The corrugated board stack dryer I use for FB
dries by slow dehumidification. Dan

 

[Film Noir]

Oriental Seagull both FB and RC are the best papers I've used. It is not made by Ilford, they wish. it has a much higher silver content than most papers, thats the magic, Keep it farther away from safe lights at least 1.5 meters or use a 7 watt bulb. You should do a safe light test prior. this paper has crazy blacks and pure whites. tones beautifully. In Canada, you can buy it from B+H in New York. You can call them direct from their website phone number. they will ship case quantities direct from California.

 

[Ektagraphic]

I have used some as well and really liked it. Will keep it in mind when I go to order paper again. As far as I can remember, the packaging says Made in Japan, so it can't be Ilford.

 

[walbergb]

I have to say this , who, what , where , how much, nonsense that is surrounding BW papers today is extremely upsetting.

All I want to do is make some large f... lith prints and I really at a loss as to what is what any more with larger roll paper.

Whats the big secret??

Bob,
Have you read Tim Rudman (Dr. Lith) lith materials guide? If not, it's available as a free download if you subscribe to his newsletter. Unfortunately, Fomatone was the last of the truly lithable papers until they changed their formula. Ilford warmtone is good for second-pass lith developing. There is the Polywarmtone Project which may or may not produce a lithable paper in the future, but that doesn't help you now.

 

[darkosaric]

Where I can buy Oriental seagull in Europe? Fotoimpex and Macodirect do not have it.

 

[DREW WILEY]

An ancient thread revived, apparently. And ancient history at this point. I have some prints around the office here made on the original Seagull G Bromide paper, which was my favorite graded paper ever. It's what Brett Weston did most of his classic work on. Then the company went under, and later the paper was reintroduced into an OK but slightly anemic version of Seagull G, including a miserable Grade 4. The VC papers mimicked the general color effect upon selenium toning, but were certainly not up to par with certain current VC papers, and
the local darkroom supplier has dropped it entirely due to quality control issues.