Whaaaat? No more syrup HC-110?

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NB23

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How can a shockingly good product disappear from the market, just like that?

Erasing what you had the best to offer and replacing it with a totally different product and giving it the same name? That’s borderline illegal.

I know it’s old news but it doesn’t sink in.
 

miha

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Ilfotec HC is at least as good.
 

BradS

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Take a few deep breaths. It’s gonna be ok.
The new HC110 is just as good as the old and is a little easier to work with. Try it. You’ll like it.
 

Donald Qualls

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How can a shockingly good product disappear from the market, just like that?

Combine the shrinking film market over the past twenty years, with what now appears to be fairly gross mismanagement at Eastman Kodak, and this is what you get. First, they outsource chemical production, then the outsource contractor folds, and some of the components are less available or more restricted (in EU, which is where chemical production was/is being done) -- and suddenly, you can't make HC-110 the way it's been done for the past sixty years. Everything I hear suggests the new works almost identically to the old in the tank, and it's too new to know how well it keeps -- but I don't have a good feeling on the latter, because phenidone doesn't keep particularly well in water solutions. The legendary keeping of HC-110 syrup was mainly due to being water-free as sold.

As noted above, Ilfotec HC is very similar, as is LegacyPro L110 (for which there's also a replenisher, if you like the economy and consistency of replenishment, or prefer a stronger solution but have a tank that needs a lot of volume to cover the film). Not really a significant difference there, as far as I've read (I haven't tried any of these; I have a full, unopened quart of syrup from about 2007 and three or four little juice bottles left from the previous one -- and haven't used HC-110 at all since I started using Xtol).
 

Tel

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Thanks Donald. I've just started my last bottle of "old" HC-110 and I was thinking of giving Legacy L-110 a try when I hit the bottom of this bottle. Might give Xtol a try. Anyone else tried L-110?
 
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NB23

NB23

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Oh, I use ilfotec-HC, and I have stocked 4 quarts of the good old HC-110, so I’m good.

I guess I’m still shocked.
 

Donald Qualls

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Oh, I use ilfotec-HC, and I have stocked 4 quarts of the good old HC-110, so I’m good.

I guess I’m still shocked.

Good grief, at 1+119, that's what, 120 gallons of high dilution working solution? Enough to process roundly 450 rolls of 35mm...
 
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NB23

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Good grief, at 1+119, that's what, 120 gallons of high dilution working solution? Enough to process roundly 450 rolls of 35mm...

12 bags of pre-2019 D76, one pre-2019 xtol, 4 quarts of original hc-110, a few microphen... 16 bulk rolls of tri-x, 10 bulk rolls of Pan-F, 2 bulk HP5, over a hundred rolls of 120 HP5...

I’m sure I must be over-compensating for something. As soon as I use up some film I start replenishing the stock.
 

Donald Qualls

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I’m sure I must be over-compensating for something.

Pretty obvious symptoms of insecurity. Seems entirely reasonable, considering what's been happening to the film and chemistry industry since the late 1990s. Sort of like food hoarding by someone with a history of near starvation, or who has reason to expect a famine.

More or less the same reason I'm looking at starting wet plate collodion: DIY photography that uses chemicals that are independent of an established photo industry. Bromide and iodide salts aren't difficult to come by, silver nitrate can be made if necessary from fine silver bullion and nitric acid, which can be made from stump remover, ferrous sulfate for developer can come from the garden store (a supplement for decorative plants in low-iron soils) -- collodion itself is the only thing that might become difficult to source over time because of the workplace hazards of nitration, but it's used in industry, still, for applications where it isn't readily replaced, and it's a co-product of making cellulose nitrate for doping fabric cover airplanes and some kinds of fingernail polish (not to mention the huge ammunition industry, which produces enough nitrocellulose every year to blow up a major city). Denatured ethanol comes from the paint department (it's the thinner for shellac, which is still used in fine woodworking), and non-denatured 180 proof is available in liquor stores some places -- ethyl ether might become hard to source over time (hazardous to store, as well), and the ether in car starting fluid spray isn't the right sort. It's used to make fuel for model airplane diesel engines, but those are getting less common, too, replaced by electric power. I think it might be possible to make ethyl ether in a home lab, I'd have to look up that process. There may also be alternative solvents for collodion, though alcohol/ether has been preferred for more than 150 years.

The beauty of my approach is I don't need to spend all that money up front and store stuff that requires special conditions to last well...
 
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NB23

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Bravo!

I definitely see myself do what you do, in a few years down the road.


Pretty obvious symptoms of insecurity. Seems entirely reasonable, considering what's been happening to the film and chemistry industry since the late 1990s. Sort of like food hoarding by someone with a history of near starvation, or who has reason to expect a famine.

More or less the same reason I'm looking at starting wet plate collodion: DIY photography that uses chemicals that are independent of an established photo industry. Bromide and iodide salts aren't difficult to come by, silver nitrate can be made if necessary from fine silver bullion and nitric acid, which can be made from stump remover, ferrous sulfate for developer can come from the garden store (a supplement for decorative plants in low-iron soils) -- collodion itself is the only thing that might become difficult to source over time because of the workplace hazards of nitration, but it's used in industry, still, for applications where it isn't readily replaced, and it's a co-product of making cellulose nitrate for doping fabric cover airplanes and some kinds of fingernail polish (not to mention the huge ammunition industry, which produces enough nitrocellulose every year to blow up a major city). Denatured ethanol comes from the paint department (it's the thinner for shellac, which is still used in fine woodworking), and non-denatured 180 proof is available in liquor stores some places -- ethyl ether might become hard to source over time (hazardous to store, as well), and the ether in car starting fluid spray isn't the right sort. It's used to make fuel for model airplane diesel engines, but those are getting less common, too, replaced by electric power. I think it might be possible to make ethyl ether in a home lab, I'd have to look up that process. There may also be alternative solvents for collodion, though alcohol/ether has been preferred for more than 150 years.

The beauty of my approach is I don't need to spend all that money up front and store stuff that requires special conditions to last well...
 

grat

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Erasing what you had the best to offer and replacing it with a totally different product and giving it the same name? That’s borderline illegal.

You're right. Let's get rid of Ektachrome. And Tri-X, since it's not the original formula. And the current Ektar isn't the original Ektar either. Fuji Acros? Throw that out, it's illegal.

Heck, for that matter, the entire *KODAK* brand is no longer what it was-- so perhaps that should be shut down too (and there's support for closing Kodak Alaris, because apparently they're evil bastards).

I have no idea why HC-110 was reformulated. I'm not enough of a chemist to understand the differences in formula. I do know that so far, other than some minor precipitation, there's no evidence that it's shelf life is any worse than the original, because it simply hasn't been available for long enough. Those who've used it seem to think it's not significantly different in performance or character.
 
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NB23

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The reality is that the new stuff might as well be tmax developer with a different tag. And none of us could tell a difference.

We live in a world where saving 0.03$ per package is more important than offering a good, solid product to the consumer. This is how it trickled from D76 in cans to the bags we have now, in which the powder is already Oxydized or at the verge. All this for saving pennies.
 

Cholentpot

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When I heard about this I got the last bottle of the old stuff off the shelf in the local place.

I'm good for another 5 years.
 

laingsoft

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...it's a co-product of making cellulose nitrate for doping fabric cover airplanes and some kinds of fingernail polish (not to mention the huge ammunition industry, which produces enough nitrocellulose every year to blow up a major city)...

If you're already going through the process of making silver nitrate yourself, it only really takes soaking cottonballs in nitric acid for a few hours to make nitrocellulose. Dissolve that in some ether and alcohol and you've got collodion. Nitation isn't really that hazardous, just do it in a fume hood or outside.

Easiest and cheapest way to get pure ethanol is to just ferment some sugar and water with wine yeast, extract it with a condenser and column (which are cheap on amazon now), then use some molecular sieves, which you can get on ebay, or from westlab or the scienceshop and reuse indefinitely just by baking them.
 

Lachlan Young

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HC-110 was not really intended for the low volume home user. It was of far greater significance across numerous pre-press, industrial, military etc markets that wanted a very long-lasting, highly concentrated, replenishable developer that could replace a whole set of other developers (and their consequent SKU's). Those markets have gone almost entirely away from needing film developer in vast quantities - and at a certain point, following the rather complex manufacturing steps used (and doing so safely) becomes uneconomical. If you can make a perform-alike developer with a less hazardous manufacturing step that maybe loses out on a few percent of longevity but costs much less - and doesn't need to be an exact drop-in to keep particular XXL markets happy - then you do so. The alternative would probably have been the withdrawal of HC-110 - or a dramatic price hike.

And it's not like HC-110 was necessarily a better film developer than what it replaced - DK-50 etc are arguably better in many metrics, but they cannot be readily made into very highly concentrated non-aqueous stock solutions.
 
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Donald Qualls

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If you're already going through the process of making silver nitrate yourself, it only really takes soaking cottonballs in nitric acid for a few hours to make nitrocellulose. Dissolve that in some ether and alcohol and you've got collodion. Nitation isn't really that hazardous, just do it in a fume hood or outside

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. To oversimplify a little, there are three basic kinds of nitrocellulose: celluloid (the stuff they used to make photographic film out of, and still used as "glider dope" for coating fabric aircraft skins), collodion (wet plate coating), and actual nitrocellulose (for gunpowder). They are separated mainly by differences in solubility -- only collodion is significantly soluble in ethanol, and it dissolves much better with some ethyl ether added. Celluloid is soluble in an array of aromatic (chemical term for those with a carbon ring, derived from benzene, somewhere in their molecule) like toluene and xylene; nitrocellulose proper is soluble in ether and nitroglycerin (and co-soluble with camphor). This is why we can't buy model airplane dope and coat our plates with it: because it requires non-polar solvents. Water-based solutions (like the silver nitrate sensitizer and the various developers) can't penetrate the surface by even the tiny distance they do in collodion.

Easiest and cheapest way to get pure ethanol is to just ferment some sugar and water with wine yeast, extract it with a condenser and column (which are cheap on amazon now), then use some molecular sieves, which you can get on ebay, or from westlab or the scienceshop and reuse indefinitely just by baking them.

As with many other things that are possible to do ourselves, this really isn't economical (or legal) to do at home compared to buying ethanol solvent in the paint aisle of the Big Box store. The column and condenser part, specifically -- you need a Federal license to distill alcohol (even in small quantities), and they don't issue many of those to private citizens. Claiming you don't intend to drink or sell the stuff doesn't help, either (and attempts to change this specifically for home fuel production fizzled out when the 1970s gas shortages eased -- though we did get home brewing legalized out of that). The fermenting part is fine, up to 50 gallons per year per adult in your household (for personal consumption only -- and yes, I have brewed my own beer; not much of a money saver, but if you're good, it can be top shelf beer at animal beer prices), but as soon as you start getting anything from a still, you're committing a Federal crime. Whether the "revenooers" actually show up and drag you away depends on a number of factors, and you might get away with it for a good while -- but that doesn't make it legal (or particularly safe).
 

markjwyatt

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Take a few deep breaths. It’s gonna be ok.
The new HC110 is just as good as the old and is a little easier to work with. Try it. You’ll like it.

It may be the case in terms of results, but only time will tell how long it lasts relative the previous formulation(s).
 

laingsoft

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Unfortunately, it's not that simple....

I can't imagine any difference in solubility between nitrocellulose for collodion and guncotton, solubility is all going to depend on nitrogen concentration, which you can control via temperature and how much of each acid you use.

As for the legality of distilling, it's not illegal here, I always forget that the states is weird with these laws. fwiw, denatured alcohol here is extraordinarily expensive, so much so that a brewing vat, some sugar, yeast and distillation column will produce enough ethanol with minimal effort. Plus if you have a good column you'll be able to clean up your hardware store solvents.

Also if you want another source of nitrocellulose, you can extract it from pingpong balls using acetone.
 

dourbalistar

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Thanks Donald. I've just started my last bottle of "old" HC-110 and I was thinking of giving Legacy L-110 a try when I hit the bottom of this bottle. Might give Xtol a try. Anyone else tried L-110?
I've used LegacyPro L110 for the past few years with no complaints. No experience with HC-110 so I can't compare, but I like that L110 comes in a smaller pint-sized bottle. It's also non-viscous and very easy to pour and measure, probably similar to the new HC-110. I'm not too concerned about super long term shelf-life, as it takes me about a year to finish a bottle using a 1:31 dilution. The liquid does turn from clear to a darker brown, but with no appreciable loss in quality that I can tell. Feel free to wander over to my Flickr to see some image samples.
 

Disconnekt

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I've used LegacyPro L110 for the past few years with no complaints. No experience with HC-110 so I can't compare, but I like that L110 comes in a smaller pint-sized bottle. It's also non-viscous and very easy to pour and measure, probably similar to the new HC-110. I'm not too concerned about super long term shelf-life, as it takes me about a year to finish a bottle using a 1:31 dilution. The liquid does turn from clear to a darker brown, but with no appreciable loss in quality that I can tell. Feel free to wander over to my Flickr to see some image samples.

I've been using L110 for the past year too. I experienced the same result of it turning a darkish brown, it still developed the b&w film just fine. I do like that it comes in a 16oz bottle, since it lasted me two 100' bulk rolls & a few cassettes, and I have about 2 ounces or so left (did develop a few rolls in lower dilutions).
 
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