[Wet Plate] White Streaks and Crepe Lines Causes and Solutions?

[D_Quinn]

The first scanned image is a 5x7-inch ambrotype. Occasionally, I encounter white streaks like those. I can remove some of them during washing after fixing, but sometimes they remain visible.
Could this be caused by unexposed silver that gets developed and remains on the plate?
(My development time is between 15 to 20 seconds).
Another possibility is that my silver bath pH might be too high (mine is ph4-5). However, before attempting to lower it, I’d appreciate any insights from others.
Could this issue be improved by slightly increasing the acidity of the developer?

Additionally, I have a question about the crepe lines (attached). I know that excessive water in the collodion or failure to rock the plate properly after pouring can lead to creating crepe lines, so I take care to avoid these. However, I still sometimes get them, and I haven't been able to fully understand their causes or patterns.
Do crepe lines tend to appear more easily when the room humidity is low or the room temperature is high?
What are the possible causes of crepe lines? I typically use fresh collodion, so its viscosity is not particularly high.

Someone advised that if the viscosity of collodion increases, adding ether would help. However, I only have a mixture of ether and grain alcohol, so I want to know if it’s okay to add this mixture. I’m concerned because the alcohol in the mixture contains some water.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[retina_restoration]

The first scanned image is a 5x7-inch ambrotype. Occasionally, I encounter white streaks like those. I can remove some of them during washing after fixing, but sometimes they remain visible.
Could this be caused by unexposed silver that gets developed and remains on the plate?

Yes, absolutely. Best practice is to clean out all silver solution sticking to the plate holder before the next plate. Carryover of silver is the most common cause for unwanted artifacts on plates.

(My development time is between 15 to 20 seconds).
Another possibility is that my silver bath pH might be too high (mine is ph4-5). However, before attempting to lower it, I’d appreciate any insights from others.
Could this issue be improved by slightly increasing the acidity of the developer?

Ignore the pH of the bath. Unless it is absolutely, wildly wrong, it's not relevant. John Coffer once stated that he never, ever tests the pH of his silver baths and he's been using some of his baths for decades.

Additionally, I have a question about the crepe lines (attached). I know that excessive water in the collodion or failure to rock the plate properly after pouring can lead to creating crepe lines, so I take care to avoid these. However, I still sometimes get them, and I haven't been able to fully understand their causes or patterns.

Those crepe lines are the result of streaks created during pour-off. I can almost guarantee you that if you're getting those marks, it's down to insufficient rocking of the plate during the pour-off.

Do crepe lines tend to appear more easily when the room humidity is low or the room temperature is high?

Not in my experience, no. The thickness of the collodion can play a role, however. As the solvents evaporate from the Collodion, it gets thicker, and therefore more difficult to control during the pour.

What are the possible causes of crepe lines? I typically use fresh collodion, so its viscosity is not particularly high.

It's all about how you pour off after coating the plate. More rocking should eliminate this. Without seeing how you do it, I can only speculate on the adequacy of your technique, though.

Someone advised that if the viscosity of collodion increases, adding ether would help. However, I only have a mixture of ether and grain alcohol, so I want to know if it’s okay to add this mixture.

Yes. It's common practice to add a mix of both solvents to thin the collodion when it gets too viscous.

I’m concerned because the alcohol in the mixture contains some water.

Don't sweat it. It's very unlikely you will ever add enough alcohol to the collodion before it gets used up.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[D_Quinn]

@retina_restoration
Thank you for all the super helpful information After pouring the collodion for the crepe lines, I'll ensure I rock it more.

 

[koraks]

Those crepe lines are the result of streaks created during pour-off. I can almost guarantee you that if you're getting those marks, it's down to insufficient rocking of the plate during the pour-off.

I got those lines too, consistently, and never got rid of them - and man, I rocked like Led Zeppelin with those plates. I think in my case the problem was the actual chemistry. When I did wet plate, I used variants of Poe Boy exclusively: relatively rich in ethanol (I never bought pure ether) and a little too much water in there, probably, too (to dissolve the potassium bromide).

Also, I'm really not sure if those white streaks have anything to do with carryover of silver in the plate holder. I associated that more with oysters along the edges. This pattern looks like something that really happens on the plate and not just around the edges. In my case, dropping silver bath pH through the addition of some nitric acid resolved fogging issues. I know others are adamant that there's no need to do so. IDK; I only know that my fogging issues went away when I did that.

 

[retina_restoration]

As @koraks suggested, the recipe of collodion you’re using can play a big role. “Poe Boy” is a very poor choice IMO, as it’s very prone to pouring errors without the ether added. Stick with a “standard” recipe like Old Workhorse, which is well understood and behaves beautifully.

I don’t think the OP is having fogging issues in his example, but it’s true that plate fogging CAN be a pH issue.

One thing I didn’t mention that may be relevant regarding the white streaks: since you’re making ambrotypes (clear glass) have you verified that there is no developed silver clinging to the backside of the glass? It’s almost inevitable that some silver will end up deposited on the backside of the glass during development. That can be wiped off in the wash water. I’m guessing you’ve already checked, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Last note: if there is some silver deposit (oyster marks) on the surface of your image, it can be wiped off during the final wash. Take a cotton ball, dipped in wash water, and carefully drag it back and forth across the plate to wipe off the surface silver. You need to apply very little force: just dangle the cotton over the plate and drag it gently, applying no pressure, allowing just the lightest touch of the cotton. If its surface silver, it will wipe off after ten or twenty strokes without damaging the collodion. But you probably already know this, yes?

 

[D_Quinn]

Hi, thanks for the comments.

Regarding the white streaks, they appear in a different way than oyster stains. As retina_restoration mentioned, I also suspect they might be due to silver deposit (veiling). Yes, a cotton ball can remove light veiling, but removing everything is difficult.

Since I’d rather not adjust the pH of my silver nitrate solution, if veiling is indeed the cause, I plan to add a small amount of acetic acid to the developer and see if the same white streaks appear.

I had a wet plate shoot again today, and even though I rocked the plate significantly after pouring the collodion, the same crepe lines appeared. This suggests that the issue is not due to rocking but possibly because I might have used more water than usual when dissolving cadmium bromide during making the salted collodion. Next time, I’ll try adding a small amount of grain alcohol and ether mixture to the salted collodion and check the results.

 

[retina_restoration]

Hi, thanks for the comments.

Regarding the white streaks, they appear in a different way than oyster stains. As retina_restoration mentioned, I also suspect they might be due to silver deposit (veiling). Yes, a cotton ball can remove light veiling, but removing everything is difficult.

Since I’d rather not adjust the pH of my silver nitrate solution, if veiling is indeed the cause, I plan to add a small amount of acetic acid to the developer and see if the same white streaks appear.

I had a wet plate shoot again today, and even though I rocked the plate significantly after pouring the collodion, the same crepe lines appeared. This suggests that the issue is not due to rocking but possibly because I might have used more water than usual when dissolving cadmium bromide during making the salted collodion. Next time, I’ll try adding a small amount of grain alcohol and ether mixture to the salted collodion and check the results.

You still haven't mentioned which collodion recipe you're using. Without knowing that, it's hard to suggest a cure for some of these issues. If you are using a "no added ether" recipe (like Poe Boy) then the odds are these issues are directly related to your choice of collodion. Stick with a collodion that has a good track record, like Old Workhorse, which is about as reliable and predictable as they come.
If you used more than 3ml of water to dissolve your salts, then it's very possible that excess water in the collodion is responsible for some of the marks. Are you cleaning out every last bit of silver from the plate holder after every plate? Not doing so will definitely increase plate contamination significantly.

Adding more acid to the developer isn't likely going to remedy your issues, but go ahead and try it - you never know. Are you using a standard recipe for the developer?

 

[koraks]

“Poe Boy” is a very poor choice IMO, as it’s very prone to pouring errors without the ether added.

Sadly, the biggest strengths of Poe Boy are also its biggest weakness! I found it attractive because it didn't involve having to purchase any ether. Within that limitation, I found the ripples tolerable, although I never really liked them. It didn't help that I shot only 4x5; on 8x10 they wouldn't have stood out very prominently.
For the record: Poe Boy is (I think) prone to ripples, but not to fogging or veiling, at least not any more than other collodions as far as I can tell.

 

[retina_restoration]

Sadly, the biggest strengths of Poe Boy are also its biggest weakness! I found it attractive because it didn't involve having to purchase any ether. Within that limitation, I found the ripples tolerable, although I never really liked them. It didn't help that I shot only 4x5; on 8x10 they wouldn't have stood out very prominently.
For the record: Poe Boy is (I think) prone to ripples, but not to fogging or veiling, at least not any more than other collodions as far as I can tell.

In regard to "Poe Boy": I was specifically citing its tendency to produce ripples and crepe lines, regardless of technique. Collodion already has a significant amount of ether in it, so I never quite understood why people would try to avoid recipes that involves adding a bit more ether. It's what makes a collodion easy to use.

 

[koraks]

Yes, affirmative. For me, the reason was that getting hold of collodion was easier than getting hold of ether, so it was one less somewhat challenging ingredient to purchase. I also wanted to avoid cadmium salts.

 

[retina_restoration]

Yes, affirmative. For me, the reason was that getting hold of collodion was easier than getting hold of ether, so it was one less somewhat challenging ingredient to purchase. I also wanted to avoid cadmium salts.

Ahh yes, it's easy to buy ether here in the USA - not so much elsewhere.

 

[D_Quinn]

You still haven't mentioned which collodion recipe you're using. Without knowing that, it's hard to suggest a cure for some of these issues. If you are using a "no added ether" recipe (like Poe Boy) then the odds are these issues are directly related to your choice of collodion. Stick with a collodion that has a good track record, like Old Workhorse, which is about as reliable and predictable as they come.
If you used more than 3ml of water to dissolve your salts, then it's very possible that excess water in the collodion is responsible for some of the marks. Are you cleaning out every last bit of silver from the plate holder after every plate? Not doing so will definitely increase plate contamination significantly.

Yes. After taking the plate out of the silver bath, I wipe it clean. I also wipe the film holder after each use.

I use the formula devised by Osterman, which is the same as The Old Workhorse formula (using potassium iodide, cadmium bromide, and ether).

For salted collodion, I make small batches. The total volume of each batch of salted collodion is 173ml, and I use 2ml of water to dissolve 1g of cadmium bromide.

Adding more acid to the developer isn't likely going to remedy your issues, but go ahead and try it - you never know. Are you using a standard recipe for the developer?

For the developer, I use Quinn Jacobson's standard recipe for positives, which I always add a little bit of saltpeter.

 

[retina_restoration]

Yes. After taking the plate out of the silver bath, I wipe it clean. I also wipe the film holder after each use.

I was more concerned with the second part: the cleaning of the plate holder after use, and before the next plate goes in. This is extremely important.

I use the formula devised by Osterman, which is the same as The Old Workhorse formula (using potassium iodide, cadmium bromide, and ether).

Actually, it's not the same. Old Workhorse uses three salts: Cadmium bromide, Ammonium bromide, and Potassium iodide. The Osterman recipe does not include the Ammonium bromide.

For salted collodion, I make small batches. The total volume of each batch of salted collodion is 173ml, and I use 2ml of water to dissolve 1g of cadmium bromide.

2ml of water added to a 173 ml batch of collodion is actually quite a lot. The Osterman collodion is a fine choice, but if you doubled the size of the batch while still limiting the water to 2ml, you may eliminate the lines.

For the developer, I use Quinn Jacobson's standard recipe for positives, which I always add a little bit of saltpeter.

I experimented years ago with the added saltpeter and it did nothing but cause trouble: unwanted artifacts and veiling. I suggest you leave that out of your developer and try again.

 

[D_Quinn]

Actually, it's not the same. Old Workhorse uses three salts: Cadmium bromide, Ammonium bromide, and Potassium iodide. The Osterman recipe does not include the Ammonium bromide.

That is right! Thanks for the correction.

2ml of water added to a 173 ml batch of collodion is actually quite a lot. The Osterman collodion is a fine choice, but if you doubled the size of the batch while still limiting the water to 2ml, you may eliminate the lines.

Sounds to be a good idea. I'll do it when I mix the next batch.

I experimented years ago with the added saltpeter and it did nothing but cause trouble: unwanted artifacts and veiling. I suggest you leave that out of your developer and try again.

Actually that was what I was thinking when I compared the plate with/without the saltpeter. I was expecting to achieve brighter highlights but I didn't see a noticeable difference.

 

[D_Quinn]

About the issue of white streaks, I conducted another test yesterday afternoon under the same conditions (light intensity, exposure, and development time). I prepared two types of developers: the normal developer and one with a slightly stronger acid. With the normal developer, streaks appeared, but with the stronger acid developer, no streaks were present. This is likely because the room temperature had risen to 26°C due to the heating, which caused the development to proceed too quickly, leading to veiling-like streaks.

Later, in the evening (when the room temperature had dropped to around 21°C), I repeated the test with the same conditions (light intensity, exposure, and development time) using the normal developer, and no streaks appeared.

In conclusion, it seems that the white streaks were influenced by the room temperature.

 

[retina_restoration]

About the issue of white streaks, I conducted another test yesterday afternoon under the same conditions (light intensity, exposure, and development time). I prepared two types of developers: the normal developer and one with a slightly stronger acid. With the normal developer, streaks appeared, but with the stronger acid developer, no streaks were present. This is likely because the room temperature had risen to 26°C due to the heating, which caused the development to proceed too quickly, leading to veiling-like streaks.

Later, in the evening (when the room temperature had dropped to around 21°C), I repeated the test with the same conditions (light intensity, exposure, and development time) using the normal developer, and no streaks appeared.

In conclusion, it seems that the white streaks were influenced by the room temperature.

26C is very hot for collodion work - that factor should have been mentioned. Wet plate chemistry works best at temperatures below 70F/21C. Any time you go much above 22C, you need to adjust your chemistry to accommodate, the developer especially. (Adding more acid) There are specific developer recipes for warm conditions.

 

[D_Quinn]

Indeed. Probably the heat was one of the biggest factors. I am glad that it's resolved (I hope... ).

 

[retina_restoration]

Indeed. Probably the heat was one of the biggest factors. I am glad that it's resolved (I hope... ).

Not probably - definitely. At nearly 80F, you must adjust your developer/time to accommodate, or you will develop out unexposed silver, which leaves marks and/or fogging.

 

[D_Quinn]

Not probably - definitely. At nearly 80F, you must adjust your developer/time to accommodate, or you will develop out unexposed silver, which leaves marks and/or fogging.

By the way, have you processed many plates and experienced pinholes? If so, how do you handle the issue? Do you boil the silver bath in such cases?

 

[retina_restoration]

By the way, have you processed many plates and experienced pinholes? If so, how do you handle the issue? Do you boil the silver bath in such cases?

If you're getting pinholes, that suggests your silver bath is over-iodized, which only happens after running many, MANY plates through it without proper maintenance, so I doubt that's your problem. Or are you talking about the kind of holes with "tails" called comets? Those are the result of insufficient filtering, resulting in specks of organic matter in the silver bath, leaving spots with streaks.

About boiling the silver bath: you should NEVER do this. It's extremely dangerous and almost never warranted. Normal "heavy maintenance" will suffice. You have a wet plate manual of some sort to refer to I hope? Coffer? Jacobson?

 

[D_Quinn]

If you're getting pinholes, that suggests your silver bath is over-iodized, which only happens after running many, MANY plates through it without proper maintenance, so I doubt that's your problem. Or are you talking about the kind of holes with "tails" called comets? Those are the result of insufficient filtering, resulting in specks of organic matter in the silver bath, leaving spots with streaks.

About boiling the silver bath: you should NEVER do this. It's extremely dangerous and almost never warranted. Normal "heavy maintenance" will suffice. You have a wet plate manual of some sort to refer to I hope? Coffer? Jacobson?

Thank you for the explanation. I haven’t encountered any issues like pinholes yet, but I was wondering at what point they typically start to appear. I have three 1-liter baths (a total of 3 liters), and I have processed about 350 plates of 5x7 inches in each bath. Of course, I filter the solution regularly and replenish the silver as needed.

Yes, I have manuals from Quinn Jacobson and Mark Ostermann.

Yes, I have seen Quinn Jacobson warning about boiling silver, so I don't plan to try it myself. However, I have noticed that quite a few people on the internet have attempted it, so I was curious and wanted to ask.