Wet Collodion vs. Emulsion making & the difficulties involved

[htmlguru4242]

Cyanide for the fixer is out of the question for me; a little more toxic than I'm willing to handle. Hypo is suitable, correct?

I didn't realize that the collodion when so far; so it's really not that expensive.

And I'm gathering that it's a wise idea to not make the collodion myself. All in all, it doesn't seem like it'd be too bad.

One more question; with the winter months coming, does the cold affect the collodion significantly?

 

[RobertP]

Hypo is fine to use for fix and it is actually needed for negatives. It takes longer but that shouldn't be an issue. I store collodion and ether in a explosion proof fridge so cold doesn't effect it. The heat is another story. But there are guys shooting in 90 plus degrees with out much trouble. The heat has a bigger effect on your developer than it does your collodion. Also make sure you wear eye protection when handling the silver nitrate. One drop in your eye and you are blind. Or at least keep one eye closed...( just joking). Wear goggles or safety glasses with side sheilds

 

[htmlguru4242]

Good to know, Robert. How much of an explosion risk is the collodion under normal conditions?


Also, bright red safelights are acceptable for working with the plates, yes?

 

[RobertP]

Not much since you are buying it in such small quantities. You will probably use it up before it has a chance to form any peroxides. Same with the ether. For the ether what I do is first transfer it to glass if it comes in a tin can so no rust can form. Then as it gets about half empty I fill the bottle with clear glass marbles to dissipate any air until the ether is at full again. You don't have to go as far as buying an explosion proof fridge. I found one that was new and was being sold for pennies so I just couldn't pass it up. It is a Fisher Scientific. It just allows me to purchase larger quanities and avoid some of the hazmat charges. Plus the wife sleeps better at night. For safe light I wouldn't go 100 watts or anything like that. But it can be a lot brighter than what you use for normal darkroom conditions. But red light is what you want yes. This process is blue light sensitive

 

[htmlguru4242]

Thanks, good to know that lots of light can be used. I'm going to see what the ultimate in minimal as far as equipment and chemicals go. I'll look into both of those books.

What's best as a chemical source: Artcraft, The Formulary, or some other source?

 

[RobertP]

Artcraft. Mike has the best prices and he is really a gem to deal with. Mavidon for collodion USP. And my last purchase for ether was from Clarkson Labs but they require at least a 50.00 order. You may want to shop locally for ether.

 

[RobertP]

If you buy Coffer's manual and cd...on the cd he shows you how to convert a box brownie for doing wetplate. I used one at his workshop and it worked really well. You should be able to find one for practically nothing.

 

[htmlguru4242]

Thanks, again, Robert.

Is the ether required for the process if you're not making the collodion? Can you get away with just using alcohol?

 

[smieglitz]

Brownie 3B converted for wetplate use by gluing aluminum corners into the film chamber:

You can do tintypes/aluminotypes in these but there is not enough room for a glass plate. The 3B model does 1/4-plate and is surprisingly sharp for being so cheap.

 

[smieglitz]

Thanks, again, Robert.

Is the ether required for the process if you're not making the collodion? Can you get away with just using alcohol?

Yes. Either Everclear 190 proof or denatured alcohol will work.

 

[RobertP]

There are some alcohol only formulas out there yes. But they get mixed reviews. Some people swear by them. Some say they make the collodion to tender. The nice part about this is there is a lot of latitude so you can experiment somewhat. Most just replace the ether in the formula with the same amount of alcohol.

 

[htmlguru4242]

I'm a little confused here; aren't the formulas with ether and alcohol assuming that you're making your own collodion?

What do you do if you already have prepared collodion, such as that from Mavidon?

 

[RobertP]

That would be it. Thanks Joe. Would it be possible to do a glass plate with a little modification in the brownie? Or would it hinder you from closing the camera? Robert

 

[RobertP]

No. You still need to add alcohol and ether along with the cadmium bromide salts and potassium iodide salts. Some formulas add ammonium bromide also, to make a working collodion

 

[RobertP]

Wear gloves and a dust mask when handling these salts

 

[htmlguru4242]

I'm aware that addition of salts is needed, but are you also saying that the collodion is not used full-strength? That is to say, it's diluted with the mixture of solvents and salts?

 

[RobertP]

Yes, such as 200ml alcohol + 240ml collodion + 100ml ether....plus your salts

 

[htmlguru4242]

Wow, over 4 pages of discussion since about noon! Thanks all for the info and for dealing with my stupid questions .

I think that I might give this a try before emulsion making; sounds like it can be rewarding, AND there are a whole lot more people with experience here.

When we're talking about alcohol for the process, is pure stuff (like Everclear) required, or can the denatured from the hardware store do?

 

[RobertP]

Everclear is best but denatured will work. They just put an additive in so you can't drink it. But make sure you get the 190 proof everclear and not the 150 or what ever the watered down proof is.

 

[Kerik]

Mr Guru,

Do yourself a favor and either get a copy of Quinn Jacobson's book (Amazon) or John Coffer's manual, or both. Do a little more bookwork before you dive in. Some of the chemicals in this process are not to be taken lightly...

 

[smieglitz]

I'm a little confused here; aren't the formulas with ether and alcohol assuming that you're making your own collodion?

What do you do if you already have prepared collodion, such as that from Mavidon?

Some formulae assume one is making collodion, but most modern references give an assay that works out to the period recipes without the danger or hassle of making it yourself. The modern formulae require additional solvent and salts (e.g., ammonium iodide) to be added to the stock collodion to form a working-strength collodion. That solvent can be either 190 proof ethanol or denatured alcohol or ether.

As Robert has indicated, varying solvents may affect the tenderness of the collodion as well as the viscosity. Another thing to watch is the water content of the solvent. That's why 190 proof ethanol must be used instead of a lower proof. Denatured alcohol has a similar water content. OTOH, if you used absolute alcohol you would probably have to add a tiny bit of water. Some salts (e.g., potassium bromide) must be dissolved in a small amount of water and this affects the collodion formula as well. Some salts (e.g., cadmium salts) affect the adherence of the collodion to the substrate. All this has an effect on how the collodion clears, flows, etc. A good manual like John Coffer's (or Towler's classic manual The Silver Sunbeam) addresses all this stuff and is a wise investment.

Attached is an ambrotype made without adding additional ether to the collodion and substituting Everclear 190. The plate emulsion was also compounded as an experiment using sodium bromide and sodium iodide salts and this, perhaps in combination with the high alcohol content has caused the collodion film to dry rapidly before silver sensitization and start to form the white defects at top right.

I haven't had any problems with tenderness of the collodion film unless I'm using a cadmium formula. But, I also haven't used the ether-poor collodion very much to say how the substitution of ethanol affects the results.

It has taken awhile for me to write this response and others have addressed a few of the same points in the meantime. So, sorry from the Department of Redundancy Department.

 

[schrochem]

If you want, you can check out (there was a url link here which no longer exists) I started as I went about learning about the process. If you haven't seen the videos on youtube go there and type in collodion. Also, Robb Kendrick has a video on his site. These will give you a broad understanding of what's involved. For specifics you need to read and practice a lot or go to a workshop. I'd go to a workshop if there was one close, but I've been just going the trial and error route Everyone here has been a great help so far. Now if I could just sneak out of work early....

 

[RobertP]

Oh and Guru. There's no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to dealing with the chemicals involved with this process. So ask away. Hell I'm still asking and having one hell of a good time in doing so. Standard lab techniques apply whenever there is doubt involved. But the main thing is have fun with all of it.

 

[htmlguru4242]

Thanks again to everyone; Robert and Kerik, I certainly understand that there are safety concerns with some of the chemistry involved; hence my question about the ether; I'd rather not handle it if I don't have to.

I've read a significant portion of the Silver Sunbeam, and its incredibly informative, though, as mentioned, it assumes that you're making your own nitrocellulose (and I believe it even instructs you how to make ether - it never ceases to amaze me how dangerous some of these things that photographers had to do were).

Wow, those books are expensive ... but I'm guessing that it's worth it.

Hmm.

 

[Photo Engineer]

This is why I chose silver halide crystals in gelatin.

It is safe, flexible, high in speed, easy to make in advance and spectrally sensitive. In addition it coats better under the right conditions.

There are many advantages to either depending on your choice of medium. I credit both with lots of plusses and minuses.

Good luck to you.

PE