Wet Collodion vs. Emulsion making & the difficulties involved

[htmlguru4242]

I've been considering lately getting started in emulsion making (there's a thread about it on that forum), but I've realized that its probably not the easiest route to the results that I want to achieve. I'm really interested in doing negatives on glass plates, and it seems like a significant amount of experimentation is involved with emulsions to even get something that will coat onto glass.

I've been wondering if, perhaps, wet collodion is a better starting point?
The process has [always] interested me, even long before I realized that it was even possible to make emulsions on an experimenter level.

Any opinions on this? What's involved cost, equipment and time wise in collodion vs. gelatine work?

 

[Photo Engineer]

More importantly, what are the features you need? You must consider this as well.

Emulsions have a speed advantage and the ability to be spectrally sensitizied. They can be adjusted in tone scale over a very wide range. The emulsion is stable and can be precoated for use at a later time. It can be coated on glass, film or paper.

Now, compare that to collodion features and decide what you want.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, and I must admit that collodion has appeal from a period standpoint making very nice period pieces more easily than emulsions.

PE

 

[htmlguru4242]

Sure, all those features of emulsions would be great, but they're nothing I'd really use (aside from the sensitizing bit). I do like the look of collodion, and the fact that you don't have to make up a whole lot of sensitive material at once (and therefore not waste alot of expensive silver nitrate) is also attractive.

I guess my question is, more specifically, what are the difficulties and equipment required in getting started with collodion?

 

[dslater]

If your interest is primarily in glass plates, couldn't you use Liquid Light and avoid trying to create your own emulsion?

 

[Katharine Thayer]

A link that was posted yesterday on hybridphoto showing handmade emulsion on glass plates might be worth looking at, if you're concerned about the difficulty of achieving good results by that route:

http://dwrphotos.com/blog/Section13/GlassNegatives.htm

 

[htmlguru4242]

Sure, I could use Liquid Light (or any of the other commercially available products), but the point was more to make it myself.

Thanks for the link, Katharine, that page is excellent and gives alot more info than any of the others I've seen lately.


But, once again, the question is more oriented towards collodion and what's involved with it...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Well, I'm about to find out... I'm taking a wet-plate class in Philadelphia at Project Basho (www.projectbasho.org) from our very own highly esteemed Kerik Kouklis. I've read a fair bit about the process, and watched it done by some very accomplished practitioners, and it is pretty straightforward even if not exactly simple. Seems like the biggest PITA with it is assembling all the gear, from the bottles for storing the goo through the processing trays, and the plate holder back to fit the camera.

 

[bill schwab]

But, once again, the question is more oriented towards collodion and what's involved with it...

As one who has recently been hooked... a LOT! It took quite a bit of time to gather all the equipment, chemicals, etc, etc. In the end, it has been very worthwhile and the pain of putting it all together is subsiding!

I would suggest reading some of the current threads as well as a lot of the information within this site that can easily be searched. Try also collodion.com for the forum provided by Quinn Jacobson as well. He also has a very good book on the process as does John Coffer. Google their names and you will find their sites. QUinn's book is available via Amazon.com.

Good luck!

Bill

PS. Kerik is great as per Scott's info. I just returned from a session with him in california which took a lot of the guesswork out of things. I HIGHLY recommend a workshop or tutorial.

 

[dslater]

Sure, I could use Liquid Light (or any of the other commercially available products), but the point was more to make it myself.

Thanks for the link, Katharine, that page is excellent and gives alot more info than any of the others I've seen lately.


But, once again, the question is more oriented towards collodion and what's involved with it...

Sorry,
when I read the OP, I thought glass plates were the primary goal.
Dan

 

[RobertP]

A glass plate collodion negative can give you excellent results. One nice thing is it can be reintensified after the initial development and fix to increase density to print in various mediums. Such as VDB...Pt/Pd...Albumen...ect..that's if you don't nail the exposure in-camera, many times you will, then its not needed.. Coffer's manual is excellent and it comes with three CDs that cover the entire process. Its the next best thing to attending his workshop. And I think if you sign up for his workshop the price of the manual and CDs are included in the cost. I, like Bill, was hooked this summer. Wet plate collodion is a great process and you can do some really cool stuff like hand coloring ambrotypes. I highly recommend John's workshop and New York wouldn't be that far for you to go. Robert

 

[htmlguru4242]

dslater, no problem; my posts aren't always clear; I guess that I don't always explain enough about what exactly I'm getting at.

I'll check out the books, and perhaps a workshop at one point. I've read alot of the stuff already here, but there isn't a whole lot of info specific to getting started; it's more of a discussion of specific materials, etc. used in the process.

I've got a bunch of storage bottles, so one thing's out of the way, and I have a few old Pyrex trays, so those can [maybe?] work for the processing trays. I believe that I saw a thread that includes info as to the silver nitrate bath.

The plate holder is going to be interesting. I'm in the beginnings of assembling a simple box camera to use, so I can hopefully design a plate holder around that; I'm sure that there's an easy[ish] way to get that done. We'll see.

Does anyone have a [ballpark] figure of the amount of cash that'd be needed to get started?

 

[RobertP]

Cash? What's that?.....If you're like me and are doing 5x7...8x10...11x14 and you're also albumenizing and sensitizing your own paper. (means more silver nitrate) I would guess 800-1000 should cover about everything. But I'd have to ask my banker when she gets home. Then again I probably don't want to know. Robert

 

[RobertP]

Also you can use regular processing trays they don't have to be glass.

 

[htmlguru4242]

Ya, I figured regular trays could be used, but I really don't have many. I don't have an enlarger at home (I use the one at school), so the only trays I have are the ones I use for sheet film developing, and I'd really rather not start putting all kinds of different chemicals in those; I know it probably doesn't matter, but you can never be too safe.

And no multiple sizes of plates, or paper making will be involved, at least, not for awhile, that is.

As to the silver nitrate, about what volume of this solution is made up at a time? The old [19th century] literature seems to put this at anywhere between a 6% and 10% solution, which really isn't too bad, assuming that you don't make more than a few hundred ml at a time.

 

[RobertP]

Now when you start ordering black glass and trophy aluminum then it is going to start getting a little more expensive. But clear glass from your local glass shop is very reasonable. The nice thing is if you get a shot you don't like or make a mistake you can peel the collodion off and reuse the plate. And trust me that will happen when you first start. Robert

 

[Brook]

Like some of the others, I took a workshop with Kerik, quite valuable, and have just gotten everything togather and have made some plates. I would guess if you already have a view camera/film holder/lenses/darkroom, plan to spend around 1000$. The chemistry is pricey, but the hazmat fees really kill. If your smart or lucky, the petzval fever will come later as this will quickly deplete your funds.

 

[RobertP]

I would suggest for wet plate and albumen printing you dedicate trays for that process. For 11x14 my sensitizing tank needs 1700ml of 9% silver nitrate. But if you're doing 1/4 plate or 1/2 plate you won't need anywhere near that much. You can even sensitize in trays. Robert

 

[bill schwab]

Does anyone have a [ballpark] figure of the amount of cash that'd be needed to get started?

Gulp... I'm afraid to look, but I would say that I had 1000 - 1500 involved before I even poured my first plate! (that included a plane ticket to California and a tutorial fee)Then there was the time... home fabrication of some of the materials can help if you're handy... helper trays, plate holders, silver box, etc... Chemistry to begin was about 300.00 ... It can add up for sure, but is well worth it in the end.

 

[RobertP]

Oh and let me add....be very VERY careful! It is addicting.

 

[Kerik]

As the credit card commercial says.... Priceless!

Brook - glad you hear you're up and running!

 

[htmlguru4242]

Hmm ... I forgot about the hazmat fees that are probably going to arise; is that just on the collodion, or other chems. as well?

Collodion seems to be about $40 - 50 for a pint; that seems expensive. About how far does that much go?

Also, what'r the prospects of making the collodion yourself? I know that making nitrocellulose is a dangerous idea at best, but nitrocellulose is obtainable from fireworks suppliers and various other places for use in lacquers. Is this stuff suitable? Though there's then the problem of procuring ether ...

 

[bill schwab]

Collodion seems to be about $40 - 50 for a pint; that seems expensive. About how far does that much go?

A long way. I would say I got about 50 1/4 plates out of my first mix of collodion. That was about 1/3 of my first pint of collodion. I didn't have to pay a hazmat fee on that. Look for a source locally if possible. I have found a local source for everything I need and they charge me a 12.00 hazard fee per order no matter how much I order. That is to share in their hazmat fees. Ether is used in a lot of industrial processes and seems easy enough to come by. You will now have to provide a copy of your ID for the new DEA rules.

Don't try to make it yourself.

 

[RobertP]

If you're thinking about making your own you are a lot braver and have a much better facility than I do. I'd save money by building my own helper trays and sensitizing bath before trying to make my own collodion. Mavidon has collodion USP. ( not flexible collodion) for 43.00 for 21 oz

 

[bill schwab]

If you're thinking about making your own you are a lot braver and have a much better facility than I do. I'd save money by building my own helper trays and sensitizing bath before trying to make my own collodion.

Exactly. The process is a little more dangerous than your average photo process as well and you definitely have to get into a different, more thorough state of mind when working with it. Thinking ahead will keep you safe... especially if you use cyanide as a fixer. The developer has acetic acid in it. Mix those 2 and the smell of almonds might be the last thing you smell.

 

[RobertP]

Exactly Bill, For the photo van I'm giving a lot of thought to how the cyanide will be transported and where inside the van as opposed to where the developer will be stored. Most definitely the cyanide will be in plastic and stored inside a very strong (padded in some way) box.