Weston's Amidol

nze · Mar 10, 2008

I second David and truly think that many of the great paper also depend on the developer. It make a long time I don't use amidol but for sure it play on the print. I also find that pyrogallol developer create different and interesting result.

dpurdy · Mar 10, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
I've never used Amidol, I'm just stirring the conversation pot here.

1. If Amidol does indeed give blacks that MQ/PQ doesn't, wouldn't that mean that the latter aren't converting all of the halide to silver? And if that's the case, wouldn't that mean there is something wrong in the MQ/PQ formula or dilution? Or is it just like POTA, does it mean that indeed MQ/PQ can't get those blacks?

2. Surely someone has done reflective densitomer tests in the last hundred years. Where are they? What are the results?

Sorry, I'm just a natural cynic when it comes to subjectivity becoming alleged objectivity. Not a month ago I read of a little research project where the subjects rated wines. They were told what each one cost (made up, of course) and ran the tests as both swill with high price and good wine with low price.

I need not tell you the outcomes.

I'm happy for you Thomas, and in no way do I want to suggest that I think you are foolish. Whatever brings you joy, do it (even if it's a total PITA? :rolleyes: .) Lord knows we could all use more joy and wonder in our lives.

According to information I have that is I think written by Patrick Dignan, who published a book on photographic formulas, Amidol unlike mq/pq can be used in either acidic or alkaline condition. And if you use it acidically it becomes a "depth developer" in that it develops from the bottom of the emulsion layer up as opposed to normal developers that work top down. The acid is actually restrained by the gelatin so not much action happens at the top of the emulsion which results in a look of depth.

I have Amidol on hand and used to use it with the tiringly referenced old Portriga Rapid. It had a particularly beautiful glow that stayed with the print even after drying. I think the glow came from the more neutral colored mid range and dark greys compared to the warm paper.

I have more recently tried it on Ilford WT FB and found it was very nice but not really different than my normal developer.

eclarke · Mar 10, 2008

I have more recently tried it on Ilford WT FB and found it was very nice but not really different than my normal developer.

Thanks, this is good to know. Ilford WT FB is my stock paper and I develop in 130 cooled by BZT instead of bromide...EC

Paul Verizzo · Mar 10, 2008

A lot of beautiful comments here

In the end, it's all art and it's all subjective.

As westerners, we are imbued with the mythology of objectivity. That only through objective, repeatable, understandable facts can we, um, understand reality.

But we are humans and as I've increasing learned in my life, subjectivity is equally real. In my callow youth I was a total objectivists sciencey geek. Now, in my September I wallow a lot of my hours in the mysteries of existence.

My former perspective has served me well and my newer understanding is a good counterweight. What pleases me is that I've learned to use both hemisperes of my brain. I can do chemistry on this forum and then write poetry.

Not bragging, just philosophy. That's why Ansel Adams was such a master, he knew both brains.

I'm sure that a forum like this has many folks of similar abilities. And not just photography, but other creative venues.

juan · Mar 10, 2008

Michael A. Smith says his Amidol was made about 100-years ago and is solid black. I'd think the unopened Kodak stuff would still be good.

Smith's amidol formulas contain a bit of citric acid. He says it's included to make the formula long lasting in a tray. I've found it easily lasts all day. Perhaps the acidic properties are what gives the 3-d effect that's been talked about here in the past.
juan

eclarke · Mar 10, 2008

juan said:
Michael A. Smith says his Amidol was made about 100-years ago and is solid black. I'd think the unopened Kodak stuff would still be good.

Smith's amidol formulas contain a bit of citric acid. He says it's included to make the formula long lasting in a tray. I've found it easily lasts all day. Perhaps the acidic properties are what gives the 3-d effect that's been talked about here in the past.
juan

Well, I have a bunch of Oriental paper and some snow and ice negs, I'll try it..Thanks..Evan

c6h6o3 · Mar 10, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
Many people lament the loss of this or that old paper, but I think amidol was as important as the papers used by Weston, Strand, and others of that era to the look they were able to achieve.

I agree. I think it was much more of a factor than was the paper.

c6h6o3 · Mar 10, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
In powder form I think it lasts a very long time. But dissolved in liquid form only a couple of hours.

Somebody with more experience may correct me.

- Thomas

Michael Smith still uses amidol which was placed in its jars in 1903. Unless he uses it up, it should last a whole lot longer than he will.

Amidol will last all day (and then some) if you use Michael's formula. The two hours "rule" is a myth as long as there's some citric acid in the formula. Amidol is the only reducing agent which works well in an acidic environment. I have used a liter of amidol working solution all day to make dozens of prints and then covered the tray with some plastic wrap, gone to bed, and made beautiful prints with that same liter the next morning.

Also, a liter of amidol will be gone from carryover loss before it exhausts. If you're making a lot of prints, it's a lot more economical than one might think at first blush.

Jim Fitzgerald · Mar 11, 2008

c6h6o3 said:
Michael Smith still uses amidol which was placed in its jars in 1903. Unless he uses it up, it should last a whole lot longer than he will.

Amidol will last all day (and then some) if you use Michael's formula. The two hours "rule" is a myth as long as there's some citric acid in the formula. Amidol is the only reducing agent which works well in an acidic environment. I have used a liter of amidol working solution all day to make dozens of prints and then covered the tray with some plastic wrap, gone to bed, and made beautiful prints with that same liter the next morning.

Also, a liter of amidol will be gone from carryover loss before it exhausts. If you're making a lot of prints, it's a lot more economical than one might think at first blush.

I agree. I too have used Amidol the next day and have printed all day. If you plan your print session this way it can be very economical.

Jim

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 11, 2008

That is fantastic news. The Weston's Amidol formula indeed contains citric acid, so that is very encouraging. Thank you for that amazing news!
- Thomas

c6h6o3 · Mar 11, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
That is fantastic news. The Weston's Amidol formula indeed contains citric acid, so that is very encouraging. Thank you for that amazing news!
- Thomas

Give the MAS formula a try:

To 1 liter water add
30 gr Sodium Sulfite
3 gr citric acid
3 ml 10% KBr
8 gr amidol

Stir them into solution in the order given. It's the de facto standard for Azo.

kiku · Mar 12, 2008

c6h6o3 said:
Give the MAS formula a try:

To 1 liter water add
30 gr Sodium Sulfite
3 gr citric acid
3 ml 10% KBr
8 gr amidol

Stir them into solution in the order given. It's the de facto standard for Azo.

I am no expert in these matters but from the MAS web site the formula reads:

Water 900 cc
Sodium Sulfite 30 gr
Citric Acid 3 gr
KBr (10% solution) 2 cc
Amidol 8 gr
Water to make 1000cc

Cordially, Howard Tanger

c6h6o3 · Mar 12, 2008

kiku said:
I am no expert in these matters but from the MAS web site the formula reads:

Water 900 cc
Sodium Sulfite 30 gr
Citric Acid 3 gr
KBr (10% solution) 2 cc
Amidol 8 gr
Water to make 1000cc

Cordially, Howard Tanger

they've gone to a standard of 3 cc KBr as the later runs of Azo have gotten colder in tone. sometimes I use even more than that.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 13, 2008

Thanks for the recipe. I might try it in the future. For now, it's Weston's since I have it mixed. Besides, I sold my Azo, actually it's still on auction for another 15 hours on fleabay (monolightphotography). That's how much I like Fotokemika Emaks paper.

Thanks,

- Thomas

c6h6o3 said:
Give the MAS formula a try:

To 1 liter water add
30 gr Sodium Sulfite
3 gr citric acid
3 ml 10% KBr
8 gr amidol

Stir them into solution in the order given. It's the de facto standard for Azo.

nworth · Mar 13, 2008

I recently revisited amidol. using the Photogrphers' Formulary product. It worked fine, and I very much liked the resulting prints. The developer stained everything except the prints. I should note that I used a citric acid stop bath - a strong stop like citric acid is needed with amidol, and that I always rinse the prints thoroughly after fixing but before the final wash. The warm black image tone of amidol seems to be unique. It definitely seems to be part of the image, since the paper base was not stained. (Amidol used to have a reputation for being a non-staining developer.) I have not done the sensitometry yet, but I suspect the characteristic curve with amidol may be a bit different than MQ and glycin based developers. It's not just contrast; the actual curve may be different. My experience is that amidol works well with both FB and RC papers.

I know of at least five formulas for amidol print developers attributed to the Westons. They are probably all authentic. Weston (Ed) was known to be a bit sloppy in formulating and also varied the formulation of his developers deliberately from time to time. They all seem to work. My luck with stains may be because I have always used amidol formulas that contain citric acid, which helps control stains. The Michael and Paula formulas have been highly recommended and seem to be excellent.

Brook · Mar 14, 2008

I think amidol is referred to as non staining in distinction to staining developers based on pyrogallol and the like. It referres to image stain.

WarEaglemtn · Mar 21, 2008

Per Cole Weston, in DARKROOM II by Lustrum Press, Edward liked Haloid paper the best. Per Cole, he printed his fathers work on Contactone, Convira and Agfa Brovira. Then he started using Ilford Ilfobrom in grades 0, 1 and 2 and says they came closest to Haloid.
He would change the light above the printing frame to account for different negative densities, going from 7 1/2 to 60 watt bulbs for Bromide papers and 100-500 watt bulbs for Chloride papers. He said his dad used a tennis visor to protect his eyes from the intense light during printing.
He does mention his father using 'BB compound', made by the Defender corporation in his Amidol mix.
He gives Edwards amidol formula as well as the formula he was using to print his fathers negatives. He used Citric acid in his formula. He says he developed the prints for three minutes, as did his father. While he used a clock his dad used a 3 minute egg timer, the kind with sand inside and an old loud wind up clock to keep track of exposure time with the noisy ticking.

He talks of Edward experimenting with 'limited edition' prints and abandoning the idea as 'undemocratic' and only a way to drive up prices.

The book, DARKROOM II is a good one and the earlier DARKROOM, also by Lustrum press, is as well. Sure makes it nice to be able to read of the darkroom work of some excellent photographers and printers.

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 21, 2008

Amidol stains with low sulfite

Brook said:
I think amidol is referred to as non staining in distinction to staining developers based on pyrogallol and the like. It referres to image stain.

Low sulfite amidol film developers can produce image stain.

PVia · Mar 21, 2008

WarEaglemtn said:
The book, DARKROOM II is a good one and the earlier DARKROOM, also by Lustrum press, is as well. Sure makes it nice to be able to read of the darkroom work of some excellent photographers and printers.

Agreed...these are two of my favorite books. Found them used after reading about them a while ago on APUG. A wealth of information...

Roger Pellegrini · Jan 8, 2010

I just purchased some Weston's Amidol from Photographer's Formulary but have been reluctant to mix it up because the instructions say it only lasts for 2 hours once mixed.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 8, 2010

Roger, read back through the thread. If it's true that citric acid prolongs the active printing time you should be good for a whole day's worth of printing.

I ended up not using Amidol as much as I thought I would, because of doing a lot of lith printing. But it still gave a stunning look with Emaks paper.

Russ - SVP · Jan 13, 2010

Mateo said:
Welcome to the world of purple fingernails.

I once spent an evening with Brett, looking at his new prints that were going to publication. Yes, his fingernails were permanently stained black. He really liked the Guinness brew too. His prints were gorgeous.

Kiron Kid

Photo Engineer · Jan 13, 2010

I have a question....

Is there any interest in an Amidol developer that does not stain the back and that keeps in a tray for at least 8 hours and in a closed bottle, mixed, for about a week or so?

If so, this is possible with about 6 months development work or about that I think. And yes, I know that there are some that claim to have one. IDK as I have not tested any of them. Just my own personal question, because if so, how is the other developer selling?

PE

bdial · Jan 13, 2010

I would be interested, and I have purchased PF Weston's Amidol, mostly I use Liquidol though.
No idea of how well the stuff sells though.
FWIW.

WolfTales · Jan 13, 2010

According to Yogurt in Spaceballs - "May the Schwartz be with you!"

Weston's Amidol

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