Well-Expired Film

epp · Jan 21, 2022

Now that I think we have come to a conclusion on what to use in the Holga with/without working apertures...

I just found my original stash of 120 film, from when I had the Seagull 4B1 TLR.

This is a list of what I found for B&W film. These were not stored in any extreme conditions.

Simple question: Would I be wasting my time by using any of this?

11 rolls Efke R100 (exp. 1/2001)
3 rolls Foma Fomapan 100 (exp. 5/1996)
1 roll Fuji Neopan 400PR (no box, exp. 1/1997)
1 roll Ilford FP4 (no box, exp. unknown)
4 rolls Kodak Verichrome Pan (one exp. 11/1997 (wrapped, but in open box), three exp. 12/1997)
3 rolls Kodak Plus-X Pan (ISO 125) (no box, exp. 1/1998)
3 rolls Kodak Tri-X Pan (ISO 320) (no box, exp. 1/1999
5 rolls generic (Freestyle, pre-Arista days) ASA 400 (white wrapper with black lettering) (no box, exp. unknown)
1 roll generic (Freestyle, pre-Arista days) ASA 125 (same wrapper/text as above) (no box, exp. unknown)

Thanks, in advance...

(Edited to correct ID of Ilford roll.)

MattKing · Jan 21, 2022

If you aren't using the film for something that you need a result from, they could be fun, even if unpredictable.
Of course with Holgas and other "toy" cameras, unpredictable is both a blessing and a curse.
XP4 is a B&W film designed for processing in C41 (normally colour) chemicals. It is usable if developed in normal B&W chemicals, but unless you want to add another layer of unpredictable ....

Cholentpot · Jan 21, 2022

I would not use in a Holga. You need something with control as to compensate for loss of speed.

Don_ih · Jan 21, 2022

epp said:
Simple question: Would I be wasting my time by using any of this?

You may be wasting time shooting the iso400 stuff but even that will likely not be unusable. The stuff around iso100 will not have changed much if stored at or below room temperature. You definitely have enough of the Efke to dedicate a roll to testing.

Duceman · Jan 21, 2022

Cholentpot said:
I would not use in a Holga. You need something with control as to compensate for loss of speed.

I concur.

Jojje · Jan 21, 2022

Age is not the only problem - I've used recently 80 years old glass plates myself - but the backing paper may have reacted with the film... I'd certainly give them a try they're not very old at least in my books.

Dr. no · Jan 21, 2022

Unless it was stored in a hot place, likely those are ALL usable. I shot a brick of 1976 Verichrome (~2016) and there was only a hint of base fog except for the four rolls at one end...which were crap. I have a box os 1972 Plus-X and 1958 Royal Ortho that produce usable images. (Well, 1972 does, 1958 is rather dense)
Traditional grain B&W has a lifespan multiples of years longer than expiration dates. T-grain and C-41 is half as good. E6 falls off 5 years after expiration. If you don't want to risk it, I'll take them off your hands.

mshchem · Jan 21, 2022

I practice with grossly expired film. TMY expired in 1996, refrigerator stored, I'm guessing 2 stops of base fog. I used some yesterday. I bought a couple 100 sheet boxes in 2001. . I use fresh film for the most part.

epp · Jan 21, 2022

MattKing said:
If you aren't using the film for something that you need a result from, they could be fun, even if unpredictable.
Of course with Holgas and other "toy" cameras, unpredictable is both a blessing and a curse.
XP4 is a B&W film designed for processing in C41 (normally colour) chemicals. It is usable if developed in normal B&W chemicals, but unless you want to add another layer of unpredictable ....

I corrected a typo, the Ilford roll is FP4 (not the Plus). I don't know where any light leaks (if any) are located, in the Holgas, so i'll keep in mind unpredictable results. If there's any paperwork with the Efke film, I'm probably safe including it with the roll when sending for processing, since they've been out of the film business for so long.

abruzzi · Jan 21, 2022

mshchem said:
I practice with grossly expired film. TMY expired in 1996, refrigerator stored, I'm guessing 2 stops of base fog. I used some yesterday. I bought a couple 100 sheet boxes in 2001. . I use fresh film for the most part.

Pretty much this.~3 years ago someone gifted me a bag of about 40 rolls of 120 film with expriations ranging from 2002 back to 1986. I've shot about half of it. Most of it isn't anything I'd shoot for real purposes, but its fine to practice. I recently got a few horseman 6x9 back and ran the old film through them to ensure that the frame spacing was correct. Some of it has suprised me. The PXP rolls, I thinkg from the late 90's needed to heavily over exposed (EI 25), on the other hand, I shot a roll of Ektachrome 100 speed (EPP? I think) at 80, and found it a little over exposed (and significant color shift towards the blue.) I'm mostly down the the harder stuff to shoot--Tech Pan, Ektachrome Tungsten balanced film, Kodachrome, Verichrome Pan (the verichrome has a /lot/ of fog at this point.) So at this point I'd shoot it all, just don't rely on it to work like unexpired film.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 21, 2022

I would shoot them with reckless abandon! I've got films that are older and still look great!

mshchem · Jan 21, 2022

abruzzi said:
Pretty much this.~3 years ago someone gifted me a bag of about 40 rolls of 120 film with expriations ranging from 2002 back to 1986. I've shot about half of it. Most of it isn't anything I'd shoot for real purposes, but its fine to practice. I recently got a few horseman 6x9 back and ran the old film through them to ensure that the frame spacing was correct. Some of it has suprised me. The PXP rolls, I thinkg from the late 90's needed to heavily over exposed (EI 25), on the other hand, I shot a roll of Ektachrome 100 speed (EPP? I think) at 80, and found it a little over exposed (and significant color shift towards the blue.) I'm mostly down the the harder stuff to shoot--Tech Pan, Ektachrome Tungsten balanced film, Kodachrome, Verichrome Pan (the verichrome has a /lot/ of fog at this point.) So at this point I'd shoot it all, just don't rely on it to work like unexpired film.

Overexposure helps to build contrast, maybe a good approach. Slightly age fogged black and white film can give nice soft results.

Huss · Jan 21, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
I would shoot them with reckless abandon! I've got films that are older and still look great!

Seconded!

Sirius Glass · Jan 21, 2022

Start shooting it. You will quickly see what is good and what isn't. Then shoot accordingly.

otto.f · Jan 22, 2022

I can only speak about back to 2003 and the TriX was even betten than the 2018, 4x5”. The Delta 400, was also good, perhaps a bit greyish.
I would use them for experiments, for instance with solarization

newtorf · Jan 22, 2022

I call ~2000 slow b&w films "fresh" -- just exposed two sheets of 4x5 Plus-X expired in 1980 partially cold/cool stored and they worked just fine. I have some 4x5 TMAX 100 expired in 2001 partially cold stored and they are as "fresh" as I can tell.

epp · Jan 22, 2022

abruzzi said:
Pretty much this.~3 years ago someone gifted me a bag of about 40 rolls of 120 film with expriations ranging from 2002 back to 1986. I've shot about half of it. Most of it isn't anything I'd shoot for real purposes, but its fine to practice. I recently got a few horseman 6x9 back and ran the old film through them to ensure that the frame spacing was correct. Some of it has suprised me. The PXP rolls, I thinkg from the late 90's needed to heavily over exposed (EI 25), on the other hand, I shot a roll of Ektachrome 100 speed (EPP? I think) at 80, and found it a little over exposed (and significant color shift towards the blue.) I'm mostly down the the harder stuff to shoot--Tech Pan, Ektachrome Tungsten balanced film, Kodachrome, Verichrome Pan (the verichrome has a /lot/ of fog at this point.) So at this point I'd shoot it all, just don't rely on it to work like unexpired film.

Andrew O'Neill said:
I would shoot them with reckless abandon! I've got films that are older and still look great!

Sirius Glass said:
Start shooting it. You will quickly see what is good and what isn't. Then shoot accordingly.

That's what I like about Photrio, great conversation in the threads, as well as great suggestions and recommendations from everyone. Thank you.

What I'm going to do is load the open-boxed roll of Verichrome Pan in the Holga with defective aperture, to start with, and start shooting it, once a warmer day comes, I don't want to go outside in 10-20 degree F weather (like today, yesterday...and the day before...), not knowing what it might do to the camera.

I'll see what comes out of it. If the film doesn't come out well, no harm done.

ic-racer · Jan 22, 2022

Even free expired film is a waste in chemicals and time.

abruzzi · Jan 22, 2022

ic-racer said:
Even free expired film is a waste in chemicals and time.

everything I've done in my 50+ years on this planet has been a waste of time, so whats one more waste?

Sirius Glass · Jan 22, 2022

ic-racer said:
Even free expired film is a waste in chemicals and time.

If the expired film was refrigerated or frozen or even just at a cool temperature, it has not gone bad. I have a freezer loaded with "expired" film and it is all still good. If fresh film is kept for many multiple months in a trunk or glove compartment of a hot car in a hot climate, it may be bad. So the quoted statement cannot be taken at face value. More storage information is needed.

Don_ih · Jan 22, 2022

Expired film is just no longer guaranteed to work as specified by the manufacturer. That does not mean that it doesn't work as specified or that it doesn't work at all - it only means it's not guaranteed.

ic-racer · Jan 22, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
If the expired film was refrigerated or frozen or even just at a cool temperature, it has not gone bad. I have a freezer loaded with "expired" film and it is all still good. If fresh film is kept for many multiple months in a trunk or glove compartment of a hot car in a hot climate, it may be bad. So the quoted statement cannot be taken at face value. More storage information is needed.

I don't throw it [expired film] out if it has an interesting or historic box.
My own guidelines for use are base fog maximum around 0.2 log d. Greater than that it is just a choice of throwing out processed negatives or throwing it out prior to processing.
True, some slow-speed film is amazing in its ability to last, but I don't use slow speed film. So I should mention that I'm mostly using 400 ISO film only since the 1980s and my experience is based on that.

Sirius Glass · Jan 22, 2022

ic-racer said:
I don't throw it [expired film] out if it has an interesting or historic box.
My own guidelines for use are base fog maximum around 0.2 log d. Greater than that it is just a choice of throwing out processed negatives or throwing it out prior to processing.
True, some slow-speed film is amazing in its ability to last, but I don't use slow speed film. So I should mention that I'm mostly using 400 ISO film only since the 1980s and my experience is based on that.

I have nothing near that old.

Cholentpot · Jan 22, 2022

ic-racer said:
Even free expired film is a waste in chemicals and time.

Says you.

I says it's fun and stuff.

Disconnekt · Jan 22, 2022

I've shot plenty of expired film, all of which fall "unkown storage" category to an extent, come out fine. The films I've shot so far have been:

3M Scotchchrome 1000 (Expired: Unknown)
FPP Retrochrome (AKA Kodak Ektachrome 400) (Expired: 2004)
Kodak P3200 (Expired:12/2014)
Fujichrome RF 50 (Expired: 10/1988)
Fujichrome Sensia II 100 (Expired: 10/2000)
Fujichrome Sensia 200 (Expired: 10/1998)
Fujichrome Provia 400F (Expired: 12/2003)
Ilford HP5 400 (Expired: Unknown)

The only rolls of slide film I had issues with was a roll of 3M Scotchchrome 1000 (no idea when it expired, came out very grainy & had major color shifts), Fujichrome RF 50 (expired 10/1988) came out but VERY faded.

For the b&w films, the Kodak P3200 didnt do well when pushed to 3200 & 6400, the Ilford HP5 400 came out fine (I exposed it at 100 & had it developed normally).

Well-Expired Film

epp

MattKing

Moderator

Cholentpot

Don_ih

Duceman

Jojje

Dr. no

mshchem

epp

abruzzi

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

mshchem

Huss

Sirius Glass

otto.f

newtorf

epp

ic-racer

abruzzi

Sirius Glass

Don_ih

ic-racer

Sirius Glass

Cholentpot

Disconnekt

Well-Expired Film

Moderator

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