weird teardrop spot

[Photo Engineer]

Rewash and treat with Photo Flo again and see if it vanishes.

If it is due to Photo Flo, it should vanish. However, if it is very very hard water, it may leave a salt stain behind from the calcium and magnesium salts having injured the gelatin.

PE

 

[LisaU]

I will test our water here but I had been told that it was fairly soft but I haven't tested it myself. I wasn't that concerned because I have been using distilled water as the last bath. I actually did rewash the last thumbnail and the watermark was gone from the base of the film but the teardrop mark remained in the image. If it was a photoflo stain would I still see it on the base when I look reflected in the light?

 

[Photo Engineer]

If it was DW and Photo Flo, rewashing should remove about 80% of the mark. There will always be a small stress mark in the emulsion. But if it was a salt in the water such as calcium, then the mark can never be removed except by special treatment in a strong bath of a sequestrant such as EDTA (although the actual chemical would have to be stronger).

It really does not seem to be due to the photo flo to me. Usually, these spots are light color on the negatives making a dark color on the print, while creases are a dark color on the negative making a light color on the print. This is what perplexed me and made me think of a crease.

Metal salts and photo flo can leave behind a milky smudge which looks milky in the print and lighter than the background.

Without a detailed analysis this is just speculation anyhow.

PE

 

[LisaU]

Ok, so I did rewash them and the white watermark that I could see on the base has been removed but the image still has the mark in it. If it was a kink, wouldn't I see a dent or kink in the film itself? I also did a test on another neg which has more photo flo so I can see how it dries. Thank you PE for taking the time to work with me. I really appreciate it.

 

[Ole]

I think I've seen somthing similar, and I wonder if that wasn't on a film that had got wet - or at least moist - in the cartridge.

Could that be it?

 

[LisaU]

Thanks Ole, like in condensation? I did have these films in a refridgerator but they were in canisters until I used them and I did use them within an hour and sometimes, I take them out the night before and put them in my bag for the morning. I can't remember if I did that with these. It does look like a drop that was squished through.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ole;

That is a very good possibility. I had not considered that one.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have seen this mark or type of impression , it is usually photo flo related, if it drys on the base of the film it is totally rewashable, if it drys on the emulsion side it is next to impossible to wash out. I agree with Lisa that if it was a kink the mark would not be as soft and would definately have a hard line, as well it is in the middle of the roll *yes/no lisa* Usually any handling marks of this magnitude would be at the ends of the film when loading.
Hard water is also a thoughtful route to consider .

Rewash and treat with Photo Flo again and see if it vanishes.

If it is due to Photo Flo, it should vanish. However, if it is very very hard water, it may leave a salt stain behind from the calcium and magnesium salts having injured the gelatin.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

Looking again , I am still of the *pompus* opinion , that it is hardened photoflo that is on the emulsion of the negative.

Irregularities in develepment do cause flow lines but they are minus density marks on the negative which then revert to plus density*dark* marks on the print.
These flow lines are Minus density on the print*white* which can be caused by a few things,
Flare on film creating plus density on film,therefore white marks on print.
Physical dust, lint on the film that will cause white marks in the print.
or
fotoflow crust caused by putting the reels in the photoflow container, taking the reels out , unwinding the film and then hanging to dry. I envision the method Lisa used to finish her film and I definately can see how these marks would be irregular going against the width of the film. This last finishing technique is critical, or there would not be the need for photoflow.Speed and a one direction pull is critical when using photoflow.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bob;

The problem is that when Photo Flo dries, it dries as a goo and never becomes hard or crusty. It would therefore resemble something like a drop of colorless honey if you had too much on the film.

This is what puzzles me. It is dry and non-sticky by the description here.

PE

 

[Monophoto]

Lisa -

Let me ask the question again - - -

I believe you said that these tear-shaped thingies are all pointing in the same direction on the film.

Are they pointing toward the end of the film that was nearest the center of the reel, or are they pointing toward the end of the film that was at the bottom when the film was hung to dry?

If they are pointing toward the center of the reel, it is likely that they also were pointing upward when the film was dried. In that case, it is unlikely that they are drying marks, and a more likely explanation is that they resulted from something that occured as the reels were being loaded..

If they are pointing in what was the 'down' direction as the film dried, then they also would be pointing away from the center of the reel. That would make a loading problem less likely and would then favor some kind of contamination.

Finally, I tend to agree with Ron that the description of the problem seems to not support the notion that these marks are PhotoFlo. Yes, there can be a problem if PhotoFlo is not diluted enough, and Kodak's recommendation produces a marginally strong solution. The the result is most often a sticky film that can be removed by rewashing. In this case, you report that you have been unable to remove the marks by rewashing.

That said, the thing that I find curious is that the marks appear to have uniform density. If there were some kind of residue left on the film due to contamination while drying, I would expect that they would have a graduated density, with the greatest density at the tip of the arrow-shaped mark (ie, the bottom of the drip).

 

[LisaU]

Ok Super Sleuths. I checked my negs again and after rewashing, nothing has changed. Also, the test negs with photoflo solution on them did, as PE had said, have left over residual photoflo that was clear and gummy, something I didn't see on my negs before. Again, I normally only put three drops of PhotoFlo solution in a tank to dunk the reels, so it is less than the recommended amount. So then, I took a look at those shapes again because I didn't look at how the teardrops were falling, just if they were horizontal or vertical. They are pointing towards the bottom of the film that was hung ( or away from the largest number ) Frame 36 is at the top when my film is hung so the tip of the teardrop is facing downward.

Could it then be condensation? Has anyone had that problem before? The teardrops then do face in the right direction for that right? And as the film advances through the canister, it gets "squished" and makes that shape?

 

[Photo Engineer]

It sounds like something running down the negatives as they dry.

Do you wipe them gently with a sponge after you hang them to dry or do you let them drip dry?

Wiping with a soft sponge which is wet with the photo flo solution might help.

PE

 

[LisaU]

I let them drip dry usually. I figured that I didn't need to wipe them if I used PhotoFlo.

 

[Monophoto]

OK - I think we have concluded that it is some kind of contamination in the wash. Now the question is what is it?

I believe you said that your final rinse involves PhotoFlow. What kind of water are you using to make up the PhotoFlo solution - tap water or something else? It is possible that there is something contaminating that water?

And when you examine the negatives, what color is the tear-drop stain?

 

[LisaU]

I use distilled water straight from the jug. On examination of the neg there is no color to the actual teardrop outline but the mark that I can see on the shiny side of the neg is dried in the center of the teardrop, and it's whitish in color like a normal watermark... I drew a crude description of it in the thumbnail. It does not cover the whole teardrop and can be washed off but the teardrop remains with no change.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It reminds me of a drying spot when no Photo Flo is used and the water is hard. Thats about all I can say.

PE

 

[janimir]

I know this won't help much, but here, at one croatian's site, we have similar if not the same problem: (I will try to relink photo, but link of the topic will work for sure)

http://fotozine.org/?knjiga=forum&poglavlje=202&list=1494

I don't know much about how that film was processed, but I can ask so we can compare problems. It is "Pan-100" film, developed in ID-11 and fixed with efke's FF-2, washed (don't know how) and "cleaned" in demineralized water.

and I have forgot to mention: it is on emulsion side too.

 

[LisaU]

Maybe there wasn't enought PhotoFlo used but I still can't figure it out if I used distilled water unless the water isn't properly distilled. And would a hard water stain affect the image itself or just impede the printing process because it needs to go through the leftover minerals?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Hardwater stain would appear just as we see it.

Remember that the best distilled water you might use still must remove any mineral salts (wash) the film from the wash water. So, a quick dip in the Photo Flo after a wash in hard water is not a good wash by any means and can overwhelm the Photo Flo.

A soak for about 2 minutes in distilled water after the tap water wash, and then a dip for 1 minute in normal Photo Flo will be the best if this is due to minerals in the water.

Also, remember that distilled water is only as good as the people and equipment doing the work. I've seen a lot of things contaminate DW accidentally including rust from the pipes of the still.

PE

 

[LisaU]

The thing that makes it so weird in mine is that all the marks are the same size, shape and pretty much in the same spot in the frames. It has happened on 4 different rolls of film durning three different processing days. It also happens on approximately 3 frames per roll but sometimes only on one roll out of two in a tank.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Maybe it is fog in the camera or again I go back to creases in the film.

IDK.

PE

 

[LisaU]

Thank you so much for all suggestions. I think I'll take everything said and try and work through them, from putting a touch more PhotoFlo in my distilled water and taking it off the reel before dunking and hanging it to really watching my spooling of film to reel. I'm going to test the hardness of my tap and make double sure my tanks and reels are dry and I'll take all film out of the refridge the night before to ensure no condensation. Hopefully with your help, I will not see those marks again! If anyone has any other suggestions, I'll be glad to work those in as well. Thank you again.

 

[greybeard]

The little, dim, light in the back of my head finally came on, so that I could figure out what was bothering me about this whole thread. In one of the first posts, you mentioned using a very mild acid stop bath; some combinations of developer and stop bath can cause staining if the stop is at or near exhaustion. This could just possibly have occurred locally due to your particular technique in handling.

Another really obscure possiblity is that you happen to have some bad film. Rare, but it does happen. See if it recurs across lot numbers, perhaps?

 

[LisaU]

Thank you greybeard, I'll be sure to check my stop but I usually mix it as needed especially for film. I will check my film lot numbers. Can someone tell me if condensation is a possibility? I mentioned it before but no one commented. Film has to travel a long way to get to me so maybe either it was me using it too soon out of the cold or something happened enroute to me? Mishandling the temps along the way????