weird teardrop spot

LisaU · Aug 17, 2007

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me. I have been getting these weird teardrop spots on a few of my negs on random rolls. They are all about the same size and show up in the light areas on the frames. I can't find any water spot markings when I look at the negs in the light and when I try rewashing, they don't change at all. Can someone shed some light?
Thank you.

Andy K · Aug 17, 2007

Hi Lisa and welcome to APUG.

Do you have more information? Is this 35mm, 120 or large format? How were the negs processed?

noseoil · Aug 17, 2007

Howdy Lisa and welcome from sunny tucson. Since they are light marks on the print, there must be greater density in the film, it seems that they may be from development of perhaps fixing. Do they show up as areas of greater density on the film if you look at high mangification with a loupe? Andy asked about the methods you have used and the format. Which chemistry are you using for development, stop and fixing. Do you use photo flo during the final rinse prior to drying? What film is this, or is it on different film types and formats?

Welcome, tim

Bob Carnie · Aug 17, 2007

Hi Lisa

These look like photo flow marks on the film, if they are on the base of the film they should wash off easily. If they are on the emulsion the marks are much harder to remove.

Examine the film carefully , put the film back into warm water lets say 80-85 degrees not hoter, and with a very soft cloth and the marks should go away.

re fotoflow and dry.
Bob

Ed Sukach · Aug 17, 2007

My guess is some sort of stress marks caused by buckling while loading the film.

Try looking at the "backing" side of the film - the "shiny" side without the emulsion - to see if there are any marks resembling creases.

More information would help - Processed at home or commercially? What format film, what specific film, was used and what developer? A scan of a strip of film, if there is a "strip", indicating the direction of the "teardrops" would be helpful ...

LisaU · Aug 17, 2007

Thank you so much for your warm greeting and thank you for your help. I'm sorry I didn't provide more info. Here ya go:
Film- Fuji Neopan 400, 35 mm. the first and second rated at 320 and the third at 800
Reeled on stainless by me.
Dev. in HC-110 dilution B at home. Very weak acid stop. Ilford Hypam fix.- 3 min., 5 min wash, hypo 2 min. 20 min. rewash, distilled water with 3 drops photoflo mixed in. for 1 min. hung to dry.
I did look for creases in the negs due to rolling (didn't find any) but my rolling is pretty smooth and I don't remember having any trouble at all. And the teardrop shape has a definate rounded bottom and it's not a crescent shape. When I look on the base of the film I did notice that there was a water spot in the area of the teardrop but it is not the same shape, it's smaller and in the center, and when I do wash that watermark off, the teardrop mark is still there as bold as ever. I can tell you that the first two were on the same roll, side by side, but the other roll that was in the tank has no marks. In the last thumbnail it only affected four frames on one roll of three. The teardrops all fall the same way too.... hmmmm....

Andy K · Aug 17, 2007

Could it be the film coming too close to itself in the reels causing eddies in the developer?

LisaU · Aug 17, 2007

I don't know I didn't even think about that one. I use Hewes reels. If that were the case, what could I do about that?

rwyoung · Aug 17, 2007

Hewes brand reels perhaps?

Describe your agitation method during development...

LisaU · Aug 17, 2007

You caught me mid edit rwyoung. You were right on. My agitation is 5 slow inverts after pour followed by three raps on the sink and then three slow inverts every 30sec followed by the same 3 raps on the sink.

JHannon · Aug 17, 2007

Are the frames located toward the inner part of the reel or the outer? It looks like water hitting the dry emulsion before the developer is poured in. Maybe part of the reel or inner tank was not fully dried?

I had water in one of my 4X5 tubes that dripped on the emulsion while I was tempering the tubes and the stain (streaks because it rotates) was permanent.

LisaU · Aug 17, 2007

The frames are from the middle #14 and #15 but the last one is #30. I do make double sure that all my reels and tanks, including all hiding places in my lids are reallly dry. Could it possibly be condensation on my film? I mean I do take my film out of my fridge and use it after about an hour, but no sooner. It may look like a drop of water maybe got squished through?

LisaU · Aug 18, 2007

The other thing that might point me to a photoflo stain is that I do use distilled water as a last wash so if I am getting any water spots it couldn't be from any minerals in the water right? It would have to be from the photoflo right? Could it be that the photoflo is not dissolving in the water and a clump of it stuck onto the film? Anyone?

Monophoto · Aug 18, 2007

LisaU said:
The other thing that might point me to a photoflo stain is that I do use distilled water as a last wash so if I am getting any water spots it couldn't be from any minerals in the water right? It would have to be from the photoflo right? Could it be that the photoflo is not dissolving in the water and a clump of it stuck onto the film? Anyone?

Unlikely. Photoflo is distilled water with a wetting agent, so "dissolving" is not an issue.

One question that has not been asked - what is the orientation of the 'teardrop'? Is it always point longitudinally along the length of the 35mm film, or does it point from one side to the other?

If the former, then I go back to the hypothesis that it is a stress mark caused by 'cupping' the film excessively while loading the reel.

Ed Sukach · Aug 18, 2007

LisaU said:
The other thing that might point me to a photoflo stain is that I do use distilled water as a last wash so if I am getting any water spots it couldn't be from any minerals in the water right? It would have to be from the photoflo right? Could it be that the photoflo is not dissolving in the water and a clump of it stuck onto the film? Anyone?

I have had trouble using PhotoFlo - many moons ago. One characteristic not shown by the scans was an indication of the size of the "teardrops". The residue I encountered was in the form of small, brown "teardrops" ~ 1-2 mm in size. These "drops" were nearly indestructable, additional washing having little effect.

I switched to Edwal "LFN" as a wetting agent - with no further problems. Since then, I have heard that using PhotoFlo at 1/4 to 1/2 strength (I can't remember the recommended dilution) solves any problems with it.

Are you using distilled water AFTER the PhotoFlo wash, or as a last wash with the PhotoFlo dissolved into it?

I've also heard that a drop of ordinary dishwashing liquid serves well as a wetting agent - but I haven't tried that; I may as soon as my last little bottle of LFN runs out.

dslater · Aug 18, 2007

LisaU said:
Thank you so much for your warm greeting and thank you for your help. I'm sorry I didn't provide more info. Here ya go:
Film- Fuji Neopan 400, 35 mm. the first and second rated at 320 and the third at 800
Reeled on stainless by me.
Dev. in HC-110 dilution B at home. Very weak acid stop. Ilford Hypam fix.- 3 min., 5 min wash, hypo 2 min. 20 min. rewash, distilled water with 3 drops photoflo mixed in. for 1 min. hung to dry.
I did look for creases in the negs due to rolling (didn't find any) but my rolling is pretty smooth and I don't remember having any trouble at all. And the teardrop shape has a definate rounded bottom and it's not a crescent shape. When I look on the base of the film I did notice that there was a water spot in the area of the teardrop but it is not the same shape, it's smaller and in the center, and when I do wash that watermark off, the teardrop mark is still there as bold as ever. I can tell you that the first two were on the same roll, side by side, but the other roll that was in the tank has no marks. In the last thumbnail it only affected four frames on one roll of three. The teardrops all fall the same way too.... hmmmm....

Could it be uneven development due to such a short development time? You might want to try a different dilution of HC110 that will give you at least 5 min development time.

Bob Carnie · Aug 18, 2007

Lisa

I really think this is photflow problem, not an developing error or handling problem.
we use distilled water with the photoflow, we use 2 litres and with the proper dilution of photoflow there will be the bubbling on top which we skim off. Hold the film at both ends and rapidly arc it into the 2litre container and then with a very direct pull take it out and immediately put in the dryer in one motion.

as I said earlier, if the photo flow is on the emulsion you may not be able to get out the marks.

LisaU · Aug 18, 2007

Thank you all. So I think I may be narrowing it down. Here is a couple of details that may be important. Looking at my thumbnails again, I did notice that the teardrops are pointing up and they should all be laying on the side with the narrow end to the left. They have no color and are of a pretty large size. If the image were printed on a 5x8 paper, the teardrop would be the size of a quarter. Also, after Bob explained his procedure with the photoflo, it makes sense. I usually use one of my empty tanks, fill with distilled water, drop in three drops of photoflo, mix, take my full reel out of my wash and drop it in, tap it, and then take it out and hang it. It seems really suspicious that there is always a water mark right within the teardrop shape. Maybe it's the way I am handling it. If it is handling, I will really watch my cupping when I reel my next roll and see if that is any better.

Bob Carnie · Aug 18, 2007

Lisa
I think the problem is that you put the reel in the photoflow, we always take the the film off the reel and do the method that I explain by hand with the film firmly in our hands before we go into the photoflow.
The proceedure from wetted film to hanging is within seconds and one fluid motion in the same direction, I am positive that this putting the reel in the photoflow is your problem. Not a fast enough transition from photoflow to drier and lots of direction changes .
Bob

LisaU said:
Thank you all. So I think I may be narrowing it down. Here is a couple of details that may be important. Looking at my thumbnails again, I did notice that the teardrops are pointing up and they should all be laying on the side with the narrow end to the left. They have no color and are of a pretty large size. If the image were printed on a 5x8 paper, the teardrop would be the size of a quarter. Also, after Bob explained his procedure with the photoflo, it makes sense. I usually use one of my empty tanks, fill with distilled water, drop in three drops of photoflo, mix, take my full reel out of my wash and drop it in, tap it, and then take it out and hang it. It seems really suspicious that there is always a water mark right within the teardrop shape. Maybe it's the way I am handling it. If it is handling, I will really watch my cupping when I reel my next roll and see if that is any better.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2007

I'd look no further than drying marks -- which almost always remain after rewashing.

My solution (living in a very hard water area)

Wash with hard water

2x 30 sec to 5 min in distilled water with maybe 2 ml/l of Isopon or similar wetting solution in the second bath.

Like most people, I find that you don't need as much wetting solution as the manufacturers recommend, but equally, I have found that if you have too little (much under 30-50 per cent of the recommended amount), you also get drying marks. This may be your problem also.

I give these last two baths on stainless steel reels (not plastic -- ?quicker unloading) and do not have problems with drying marks.

Heat-drying the film makes things much worse.

LisaU · Aug 18, 2007

Sounds like we have hopefully solved it. I will do a combo of Roger and Bob. I'll up the photoflo to 50% of the recommended in my last bath then take it off the reel and follow Bob's method for hanging. Thank you all for all your help. It feels good to know that I have you all out there watching my back.

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2007

After thinking this over for a day or so, I believe it might be a kink mark from bending the negative, before processing when feeding it onto the reel.

I don't think photo flo would cause such a distinct mark, but I may well be wrong.

Kinks are generally not that narrow, but rather are wider with a dark center where it bends more sharply, so I'm not sure of that either.

Just a thought.

PE

LisaU · Aug 18, 2007

The only reason I don't know if it would be a kink is that it has a distict bottom edge like a pear shape. If it was a bend, wouldn't it look more like a crescent shape?

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2007

Well, Photo Flo is designed to prevent marks like that. I would expect it perhaps from a situation without Photo Flo.

I pointed out that kinks are usually broader, and yes, open ended. I have seen that defect sometime or other but cannot remember what it was.

Also, the Photo Flo mark would probably wash out.

PE

LisaU · Aug 18, 2007

That's why I was confused before. I didn't know how photoflo would stain it so that it would be lighter on the edges and I can wipe the watermark off but the shape is still there. I would have thought that there would be no watermark at all but maybe the mark is photoflo after drying. I think I'll use the same solution I make usually and put a full dropper onto some spare negs and let it dry and see if it makes a mark.

weird teardrop spot

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