Weird light leak from black plastic bulk load cassettes

[lifein2x3]

I've been bulk loading film for years and have never seen this happen before. I just recently started using plastic cassettes on a trip to San Francisco for bulk-loaded HP5+; I've used the Kalt metal ones for over a decade without any problems. Of the 5 rolls I shot with these cassettes, they all had, to varying degrees, this pattern of light leak:

A quick photo I took while it was hanging to dry in my bathroom.

What's weird about it is that it's always the bottom third of the frame, there's no pattern to which frame (one roll had 20 out of 36 shots like this, another only had 2 or 3), and the strength of the light leak varies. In some frames, it's barely fogged. In others, it's completely exposed. Also, I was alternating between B&W and color film while there; none of the color film had this problem. Neither did the one roll of B&W I brought in one of the Kalt metal containers. The film was hand-checked through security both going and coming, and the cassettes were stored in black plastic canisters.

It's obvious the problem is the plastic cassettes, but what I can't figure out is how this specific pattern of light leak was caused. It's not the camera (a Canon A2E). Anyone have any ideas? Is this a fixable problem, or did I get a bad batch of cassettes?

 

[Xmas]

Suggest camera or loader looks like more like camera.
You inverted the image to make diagnosis more difficult?
You did not mention the loader type,
Nor brand name of cassettes?

 

[lifein2x3]

I've conclusively ruled out the camera, as I said in the post. This only happens to rolls that are loaded into the cheap general brand black plastic cassettes. I can also rule out the bulk loader, as it only happens to the rolls loaded into the cheap plastic cassettes, not the metal Kalt cassettes. This is a problem that is with the cassettes. If it were the camera, it would have also happened to the 8 rolls of C-41 I shot. If it were the loader, it wouldn't conveniently line up with the frame breaks.

EDIT: I guess what I'm asking here is, what part of the cassette is causing this light leak?

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Hi.
Without seeing the negatives as negatives and without seeing the loader or the cassettes, no one can help you other then yourself.

 

[lifein2x3]

Hi.
Without seeing the negatives as negatives and without seeing the loader or the cassettes, no one can help you other then yourself.

I've said twice now that I can conclusively rule out the loader. It's a brand-new Lloyd loader from B&H. I've run probably 20 rolls of film off of it with Kalt metal cassettes with 0 leaks. As for the cassettes, they're also brand new, general brand black plastic cassettes from B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/86473-REG/Kalt_NP11137_1_35mm_Cassette_For_Bulk.html

As for a photo of the film, this is all I have at the moment (I'm at work and won't be home for another 7 hours).

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Thanks!
I've had similar on a Nikon EM and it was the camera's fault.
Your cassette could have the top or where the lid is that isn't closing properly.
I've never used plastic cassettes, so can't help you there.
If you are sure id the cassettes problem, you can send them for recycling.
I use old reusable Ilford cassettes and newer Lucky cassettes.
Also sometimes the "rejects" from a commercial lab.

 

[Xmas]

Thanks for negative the artifice above the fountain on frame numbered 36 would seem tobindicate it is the loader.

My 3rd party Loyds 'look alike' inhibits the cassette door not being closed properly please inspect the hinge and sides of the door for damage.

The cassettes can leak but not like that, mine are well serviceable.

You might have to load a short length and process it to confirm.

 

[banandrew]

I have to say, looking at your image I really doubt it's from the cassette. The reason is I can't imagine any way in which a broken cassette would give that kind of light leak without spilling over to other parts of the frame. And the fact that they're lined up exactly on the "left" half of the frame suggests to me a shutter-not-closing problem. Also, it's hard to tell but the burned in spots look like they are slightly darker inside the frame, and slightly lighter out towards the sprocket holes, again suggesting the leak came from within the frame (ie from through the lens).

I'm not very familiar with the Canon a2e, does it have a horizontally traveling shutter? If so I think that's the best place to look.

 

[lifein2x3]

Here's what I don't understand. I alternated color and B&W film the entire trip. This roll, for example, had a roll of C-41 shot before it and another roll of C-41 shot immediately after. Not a single one of the 8 lab-processed, non-bulk-loaded rolls of C-41 had a light leak of any kind. That says to me there's no way it could possibly be the camera.

 

[Xmas]

I have to say, looking at your image I really doubt it's from the cassette. The reason is I can't imagine any way in which a broken cassette would give that kind of light leak without spilling over to other parts of the frame. And the fact that they're lined up exactly on the "left" half of the frame suggests to me a shutter-not-closing problem. Also, it's hard to tell but the burned in spots look like they are slightly darker inside the frame, and slightly lighter out towards the sprocket holes, again suggesting the leak came from within the frame (ie from through the lens).

I'm not very familiar with the Canon a2e, does it have a horizontally traveling shutter? If so I think that's the best place to look.

Shutter not closing would not have flashed the rebates uniformly?
There is a velvet edge to the leak?
There is a flying saucer (UFO) hovering above the fountain on frame 36?

The short odds are
a leak into take up spool area or
a leak into cassette loading area of the daylight loader

The leak signature is very strange even then...

 

[lifein2x3]

I forgot to add that when I loaded the cartridges, I did so in a dark room (not 100% dark, but it was at night with the lights off and blinds closed.)

 

[banandrew]

Shutter not closing would not have flashed the rebates uniformly?
There is a velvet edge to the leak?
There is a flying saucer (UFO) hovering above the fountain on frame 36?

The short odds are
a leak into take up spool area or
a leak into cassette loading area of the daylight loader

The leak signature is very strange even then...

Ya it is weird. I thought it was inside the frame because inside the frame looks denser than the rebates. Not sure how to explain that UFO though, maybe there really was one!

 

[banandrew]

Here's a photo of my roll, where the cassette malfunctioned just as I was getting ready to load it onto the reel. Sorry for the motion blur. Look at the bottom of the top row of negatives.

 

[lifein2x3]

When I get home from work I'll post a better picture of more of the film. I'm glad you guys are also baffled, because it makes absolutely no sense to me. The only thing I can come up with is the felt was bad and somehow the canister was open to light from the viewfinder around the mirror and shutter in a way that regular commercially loaded canisters aren't. But I'll be damned if I can figure out how.

 

[lifein2x3]

Here's a photo of my roll, where the cassette malfunctioned just as I was getting ready to load it onto the reel. Sorry for the motion blur. Look at the bottom of the top row of negatives.

That looks to me like the end cap wasn't on tight enough.

 

[Xmas]

I forgot to add that when I loaded the cartridges, I did so in a dark room (not 100% dark, but it was at night with the lights off and blinds closed.)

That is interesting information.
Does your loader have an interlock on the cassette door being latched completely and does it still work?
One needs a full darkroom or changing bag for HP5+, if you can see the loader, and the door is not latched the film will be at DMAX.

That would be OK for wet printing sometimes.

But to get this leak signature you would also have needed to stop or pause winding on the clicks.

And it does not explain the 'UFO'!

 

[banandrew]

That looks to me like the end cap wasn't on tight enough.

Well you're certainly right about that, it popped off while the lights were still on!

 

[Xmas]

That looks to me like the end cap wasn't on tight enough.

I use an Avery label across the gap between the cassette body and the screw cap with the film type written on it.

Some of my cassettes don't have sufficient friction, and I like belt and braces, for exposed film.

 

[lifein2x3]

That is interesting information.
Does your loader have an interlock on the cassette door being latched completely and does it still work?
One needs a full darkroom or changing bag for HP5+, if you can see the loader, and the door is not latched the film will be at DMAX.

That would be OK for wet printing sometimes.

But to get this leak signature you would also have needed to stop or pause winding on the clicks.

And it does not explain the 'UFO'!

The loader: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31737-REG/Lloyd_LL01_35mm_Bulk_Film_Loader.html
This is how it loads film: Dead Link Removed

When the door is closed, you slip the crank in through a hole in the door, which effectively locks the door in place while the film is being wound. It doesn't have any kind of indicator about frames rolled, you just count the number of cranks (31 or so for 36 frames.) And, like I said, the rolls I loaded off of this same bulk roll, under the exact same conditions, in my old metal Kalt cassettes, didn't have this problem. It's literally only the 5 rolls that were in plastic cassettes.

 

[pbromaghin]

OP - Bad light seal where the film sticks out of the cassette?

 

[lifein2x3]

OP - Bad light seal where the film sticks out of the cassette?

That's literally the only thing I can think of, yeah. But what I don't get is why it's that pronounced only on specific frames. My working theory now is that somehow, light from the viewfinder (or lens) that normally gets into the camera and is blocked by the felt on commercially loaded canisters somehow wasn't by these. I'm going to double check when I get home, but I have a theory that it's going to be more pronounced on frames that were shot when I was outside in bright sunlight, and that the darker ones are on frames where the film "sat still" inside the camera. If I took several frames in quick succession, I'm thinking those are the ones that are okay.

 

[MattKing]

My guess: The plastic cassettes are stopping the door on the loader from closing properly.

 

[banandrew]

That's literally the only thing I can think of, yeah. But what I don't get is why it's that pronounced only on specific frames. My working theory now is that somehow, light from the viewfinder (or lens) that normally gets into the camera and is blocked by the felt on commercially loaded canisters somehow wasn't by these. I'm going to double check when I get home, but I have a theory that it's going to be more pronounced on frames that were shot when I was outside in bright sunlight, and that the darker ones are on frames where the film "sat still" inside the camera. If I took several frames in quick succession, I'm thinking those are the ones that are okay.

For that to be true, the light would have to be coming in at such an angle that it were only to hit the felt part of the canister, and nowhere else with exposed film.

 

[Xmas]

My guess: The plastic cassettes are stopping the door on the loader from closing properly.

Eg broken hinge?

 

[lifein2x3]

Like I said before, it's a brand new loader that works perfectly, and the design is such that if the door isn't sealed tightly, you can't wind film at all because the crank won't fit through the hole in the door. These rolls of film were loaded in a dark room, at night, with the blinds and door closed. And every other roll of film I've wound off of it has not had light leaks. It cannot be the loader.