We need more civility and patience here

[RalphLambrecht]

Some of the hallmarks and apt criticisms of fanboy digital photo forums, such as those now based in Seattle, are tendencies toward putting others down, one-upsmanship, and the lack of civility and patience by posters, both OP and responses.

That seems to be happening more frequently here and in other large format forums. It's making large format forums unpleasant, even to bystanders. No wonder there's a lack of manufacturer and non-in-group participation.

Large format photography is becoming increasingly popular with a new generation of photographers seeking a thoughtful alternative to digital imaging, but while they're interested, there's much to learn, large format information is largely scattered, too-often unreliable subjective opinion, and generally hard to find with any reliability.

In the absence of clear information in one place, it's difficult, expensive, and uncertain for anyone, let alone a beginner, to put together an optimized large format outfit and use it effectively. That's why people turn to this forum for advice, hopefully objective, useful advice..

Might I suggest that more understanding, kindness and patience is needed? Also, some keep trying to one-up others or putting them down. Might I also suggest that some tact and humility are needed?

Let's keep these forums an appropriate and pleasant way to exchange opinions and learn from each other about areas where comprehensive, objective information about our craft and our gear are becoming muddied with the passage of time.

It's free and you get what you pay for.

 

[Blythenti]

Hopefully after the election we will return to world peace!

 

[AgX]

The increasing amount of people on ignore list is worrying me.

What we need is a strict moderation against any personal attacks or comments. I was told "there are old grumpy men here, don't mind about them" but that is not an excuse anymore.

Moderators: PLEASE do something before you have trashpile in front of you. I have seen this road before. @Sean

Recently I reported via the report button a post with an utmost strong insult, aimed at other members. As after days the post was still online, I reported it by PM to Sean. Still no reaction of any kind. I was told by another member that such language meanwhile is common in parts of the world and thus tolerated.

 

[removed account4]

Hopefully after the election we will return to world peace!

im visualizing whirled peas now I hope its catchy

 

[Alan Gales]

Might I suggest that more understanding, kindness and patience is needed?

I know you are talking about the forum but the whole world sure could use more of this.

 

[Pentode]

As several here have already pointed out, differences of opinion are necessary for discourse on the topics we are all so passionate about. There is, however, a difference between disagreeing with someone and insulting them. That's not a line that gets crossed on this forum all that often, in my experience, but when it does it tends to get crossed by the same small group of people who have crossed it before.

Likewise, humor is necessary to keep a forum enjoyable and light-hearted. Just as with differences of opinion, there is a difference between light-hearted humor and mean-spirited sarcasm and, also as with differences of opinion, the line is respected here most of the time but not always. (and, no, I did not think Alan Edward Klein's comment was even remotely mean-spirited or disrespectful. It was funny, but he clearly hasn't met my Mom.)

There will always be subtleties in text that will escape some people, especially on an international forum where English is not everyone's first language. In a vast majority of cases our members seem to understand that and keep it in mind when they post, either consciously or not. There is a much smaller percentage of members who seem to enjoy pushing people's buttons. I don't know whether that's a misinterpretation on my part of their particular sense of humor, but I doubt it. Members here are really pretty good about making their intentions clear - good or bad.

Every forum has members who are strongly opinionated and those opinions are needed to make a forum work and every forum has members who can't or won't be bothered to candy-coat everything they post and, to a certain degree, other members need to understand and tolerate that but I do believe that there are ways to express ourselves that are more respectful than others and they don't require any more effort than being nasty does. I don't think it's a lot to ask that everyone take that into consideration and I don't think there's anything wrong with 5x7shooter giving us a friendly reminder that civility doesn't require much work and can go hand-in-hand with disagreement.

If certain people behaved in the real world the way they do on the internet they'd either have no friends, sport black eyes a lot of the time or both.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Agreed. This should be a place of sharing caring and learning.

 

[MattKing]

Agreed. This should be a place of sharing caring and learning.

And fun.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

And fun.

Yes! Gotta be fun!

 

[removed account4]

Yes! Gotta be fun!

!!

 

[mshchem]

Is this where we show photos of our new aquisitions? My new Morse film processor. Now let's see if we are patient

 

[Kino]

Hey that's just like the one I had years ago. Someone was asking about how aerial roll film was processed; here you go.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

A lot of people are on edge right now, because of the pandemic, the economy, political divisions in the U.S. and around the world, and that comes out in these forums, just as it does everywhere else.

I’d recommend in general that people think a little more than usual about how their posts will be taken.

Avoid snarky remarks.

Back off on the ironic posts, which are a challenge to do well even in the best of times.

Try to be helpful to everyone, but to new members of the community especially.

Absolutely no political side jabs.

And if someone has a surprisingly strong reaction to something you posted without any negative intention, think about what may be going on in their lives that may have contributed to that response.

Remember also that the moderators are volunteers. We all have day jobs. We’re also spread out around the globe, so your report may not be looked at until someone is awake and actively checking into the forum. Fortunately, most people are able to self-moderate, but if folks can avoid antagonizing each other, we have more time to deal with the spam and scams that are coming in every day.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Am I the only one here who doesn't see lack of courtesy and respect as a problem here?

My interactions with people here and on other similar fora have been rewarding, helpful and gratifying for the overwhelming majority. The occasional friction seems to me largely trivial and usually gets resolved quickly.

For those that have problems with certain people, there is the "ignore" function. FWIW, I have no one on "ignore," I simply skim through posts I find unhelpful. For my part, I attempt to learn from those more experienced and knowledgeable than I, and try to help those who I can with my knowledge and experience. Only very, very seldom have I encountered an unpleasant situation here. On those rare occasions, I simply retire from the discussion and move on.

I do believe that we should all try to interact with others respectfully and refrain from personal disparagement. The flip-side of this coin is to give others the benefit of the doubt when something seems untoward or too sharp a criticism and try not to overreact. All too often, a comment is taken personally when not intended as such. We need to all have a healthy dose of tolerance here as well as fairly thick skins. And remember, "tolerate" doesn't mean "like," rather more like, "deal with it." or "get over it."

I do think that there is a general tendency these days to search for the offensive in all our interactions and to call it out. In many instances this is good, but it can be overdone. Especially on a non-political, largely how-to type forum like this, maybe we can turn down our sensitivities in this regard. I have too often seen a discussion devolve into bickering just because two involved parties were unable, or unwilling, to move past perceived slights. Those that call for civility should also be those that are first to excuse the occasional transgression.

Best,

Doremus

P.S: I'd like to add that I find the moderation here most excellent. David's comments directly above exemplify this.

 

[grat]

Is this where we show photos of our new aquisitions? My new Morse film processor. Now let's see if we are patient

Wasn't that replaced with the Lewis processor? Better visual quality and slightly friendlier, but more convoluted?

 

[Sean]

A lot of people are on edge right now, because of the pandemic, the economy, political divisions in the U.S. and around the world, and that comes out in these forums, just as it does everywhere else.

I’d recommend in general that people think a little more than usual about how their posts will be taken.

Avoid snarky remarks.

Back off on the ironic posts, which are a challenge to do well even in the best of times.

Try to be helpful to everyone, but to new members of the community especially.

Absolutely no political side jabs.

And if someone has a surprisingly strong reaction to something you posted without any negative intention, think about what may be going on in their lives that may have contributed to that response.

Remember also that the moderators are volunteers. We all have day jobs. We’re also spread out around the globe, so your report may not be looked at until someone is awake and actively checking into the forum. Fortunately, most people are able to self-moderate, but if folks can avoid antagonizing each other, we have more time to deal with the spam and scams that are coming in every day.

Well said David! Things are quite tense in every web venue I visit (sign of the times?). I will reply in full when I get home from work. Let's see if we can get on a path to tackle these concerns. Keep in mind we can have upwards of 500 posts in a day or more if things get really busy. Also, it's far easier to see the bad apples than all the great posts. More soon... Thanks for bringing this up.

Sean

 

[Vaughn]

Am I the only one here who doesn't see lack of courtesy and respect as a problem here?...
Doremus
P.S: I'd like to add that I find the moderation here most excellent. David's comments directly above exemplify this.

No, you are not, and yes, the moderation is excellent!!

I also like Ralph's, "It's free and you get what you pay for." Especially since he is a subscriber and puts his money where his mouth is.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

This is a great site, where the majority of its members are courteous and respectful. There have been a few rotten apples, but I really don't see them here anymore. Sadly, some great people here left because of them.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I deleted my earlier reply in case I may have misunderstood the intent of Alan's comment. I don't want to further incivility myself.

I never saw your post. But from what I can read from others, apparently I said something that upset you. I apologize for that. That was not my intent. I was trying to be lighthearted and ironic. It's easy to take stuff that goes on here too seriously. We shouldn't do that, in my opinion. It's often hard to get comfort in forums, hence the point of my post.

 

[Vaughn]

Alan is a serious user of happy faces, you can always believe his happy face! Whereas I try to pretend I'm cool...

 

[PonySoldier1887]

I left the Large Format Forum for this very reason. So far, the jury is still out here. It is indeed possible to disagree without becoming disagreeable! On the other hand I have already invoked the "ignore" function more than I ever did of the LFF but probably for different reasons. There are those who feel compelled to weigh in on every post... is there some "award" for maximum number of posts

I never saw your post. But from what I can read from others, apparently I said something that upset you. I apologize for that. That was not my intent. I was trying to be lighthearted and ironic. It's easy to take stuff that goes on here too seriously. We shouldn't do that, in my opinion. It's often hard to get comfort in forums, hence the point of my post.

 

[PonySoldier1887]

Doremus pretty well said it all as far as I can tell and, I always find his posts enlightening, thoughtful and easy to interpret. I left the Large Format Forum because I felt there were too many "know it alls" who lacked common courtesy . For those who feel obligated to comment on every post I find the ignore function invaluable in correcting the signal to noise ratio. In short, I see no need to intentionally antagonize/belittle or criticize.

 

[Cholentpot]

Well, in for my ten cents.

I'm one of them new generation large format dweebs. I got into it at the end of the summer, and honestly this place has been nothing but solid help and good advice. Sure there were a few lemons sprinkled in with the LEARN THE TERMINOLOGY being thrown around a bit. However, as an adult I got over it and frankly am still confused by the Graflex world. And I still stumble and call it a roll film back. Can't help it, I don't know anyone who shot these machines. Everyone I know shoots digital or doesn't even own a camera anymore.

However,

With the help of the forum I am now slicing my own 4x5 X-ray film and getting good negatives and scans. In the old days I would have either had to pay money to go to school to learn this stuff or figure it out stumbling around. The advice I was given is priceless, a few eggshells doesn't ruin the cake. I'm grateful for this website.

Carry on folks.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

[QUOTE="MattKing, post: 2335894, member: 6437
Being reasonably familiar with Alan's posts, I am confident his post was made in gest.
If I may suggest back to the OP, even a not well effected attempt at humour is best responded to with civility and patience.
.

I agree entirely with the OP sentiments but I saw Alan's post as genuinely funny and an attempt to direct a "home truth" about forums to all forum members via gentle humour.

The same may be said of other humorous comments. I took them all to indicate that the occasional review of what can go wrong on a forum is helpful
Maybe it is part of the British "mother-in-law" humour syndrome or even the pentaxuser humour syndrome

Yes there is a problem when one man's humour is another man's insult but it is usually clear which it is meant to be.

The other way to resolve the problem is to make it a rule that humour or whimsy will not be tolerated and replies that do not state facts about a thread or state more than facts will be deleted and next time the member will be barred form Photrio.

In some ways this might actually get the thread's originator to a problem's cause or a useful answer quicker but I fear most members would leave more quickly than is currently the case when a member feels he/she is being deliberately badly treated. The forum could become the equivalent of what I think is called "Alexa". My son and his family have one in the house. Alexa is not great when it comes to discourse.

Besides I have my own "Alexa" at home. She tells me things as well. "I'll tell you something" she says emphatically and then I occasionally get both barrels

pentaxuser

I never saw the OP's response but have read other's comments. And I apologized for my post as I didn't want to create any discomfort for the OP. And I also agree with you that my post was done with irony and humour, taking a shot at forums in general and what you can expect from them. Certainly it was not aimed at anyone in particular especially the OP.

Regarding your point about doing away with whimsical remarks like mine and humour would only make the forum clinically boring. There's more to photography and communication, which the forums are all about, then pixels and EV. Film vs digital threads get pretty stale after awhile. Communications include satire, humor, appreciation, encouragement, knowledge, and support as well as just facts. I realize it's sometimes hard to communicate in emails and forums, to get the point across without it being seen as an insult. This is especially true when you have international contributors. Many things can be misinterpreted in translation to one's native tongue. That's why I added a smiley to indicate I was being humorous and not serious. Obviously, it didn't work. I think as happened here, if someone feels attacked or hurt, they should say so and allow the other party to correct it. Then we could all move on. I hope the OP has. But let's not destroy the human interaction or it will destroy the fun of the forum as well and in the end destroy the forum period.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

What we really need around here is... MORE COWBELL!