We need more civility and patience here

[5x7shooter]

Some of the hallmarks and apt criticisms of fanboy digital photo forums, such as those now based in Seattle, are tendencies toward putting others down, one-upsmanship, and the lack of civility and patience by posters, both OP and responses.

That seems to be happening more frequently here and in other large format forums. It's making large format forums unpleasant, even to bystanders. No wonder there's a lack of manufacturer and non-in-group participation.

Large format photography is becoming increasingly popular with a new generation of photographers seeking a thoughtful alternative to digital imaging, but while they're interested, there's much to learn, large format information is largely scattered, too-often unreliable subjective opinion, and generally hard to find with any reliability.

In the absence of clear information in one place, it's difficult, expensive, and uncertain for anyone, let alone a beginner, to put together an optimized large format outfit and use it effectively. That's why people turn to this forum for advice, hopefully objective, useful advice..

Might I suggest that more understanding, kindness and patience is needed? Also, some keep trying to one-up others or putting them down. Might I also suggest that some tact and humility are needed?

Let's keep these forums an appropriate and pleasant way to exchange opinions and learn from each other about areas where comprehensive, objective information about our craft and our gear are becoming muddied with the passage of time.

 

[BrianShaw]

 

[removed account4]

5x7shooter --> you rock!

 

[peter k.]

Two thumbs' up

 

[Canuck]

 

[mshchem]

Them's fightin' words!

Absolutely, agree. Especially with many folks at home, this should be a refuge

 

[Ariston]

This thread is getting out of hand - hopefully the moderators will lock it down before it gets worse!

 

[BrianShaw]

This thread is getting out of hand - hopefully the moderators will lock it down before it gets worse!

Or move it to The Sospbox where the message is needed even more!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Some of the hallmarks and apt criticisms of fanboy digital photo forums, such as those now based in Seattle, are tendencies toward putting others down, one-upsmanship, and the lack of civility and patience by posters, both OP and responses.
...Might I suggest that more understanding, kindness and patience is needed? Also, some keep trying to one-up others or putting them down. Might I also suggest that some tact and humility are needed?

Let's keep these forums an appropriate and pleasant way to exchange opinions and learn from each other about areas where comprehensive, objective information about our craft and our gear are becoming muddied with the passage of time.

Apparently if you want more understanding, kindness and patience, forums aren't the place to find them. You have to visit your mom.

 

[gone]

Leave it to a lawyer to see confrontation where there is none. This sort of thing is why I stopped coming here. 5x7shooter, I am SURE that Alan's comment was meant to be humorous, something all forums could with with more of. I saw nothing at all snide, sarcastic, etc etc in what he said. But ugliness, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To quote someone that had a great sense of humor, I think thou dost protest too much. Now, I can sign back out and see y'all next year or two!

 

[DonW]

Wow didn't take long for this noble effort to get shot down. How sad this place has become.

I have only just been posting for a short time but I have noticed some long term members have had enough of exactly what the OP described and have left Photrio.

Civility is not a weakness. It shows maturity.

 

[MattKing]

First, I applaud the OP's sentiment.
Second though, I appreciate both irony and humour.
Third, irony and humour can be difficult to share effectively on internet fora.
Being reasonably familiar with Alan's posts, I am confident his post was made in gest.
If I may suggest back to the OP, even a not well effected attempt at humour is best responded to with civility and patience.
I've done some trial work - in my quarter century of it I practiced more as a solicitor than a barrister - but a really useful technique was to take a look at what appeared to be a really objectionable letter/email/statement, pause for a bit, and then say to myself: "did he/she misunderstand what was said/is going on?"
In normal life, one can ask as well: "was that intended to be ironic or funny?"
There is a fair amount of grumpiness around - perhaps more than usual - but in the 15 years I have been here it has always seemed to ebb and flow.
The best response is civility, patience, and taking the opportunity to acknowledge the good things that happen - in fact thank people for them.
So I will say to the OP, "thanks for bringing this up".

 

[wiltw]

Always discuss points about photography, never engage in personally-directed commentary.

 

[BrianShaw]

Withdrawn

 

[otto.f]

Wow didn't take long for this noble effort to get shot down. How sad this place has become.

I have only just been posting for a short time but I have noticed some long term members have had enough of exactly what the OP described and have left Photrio.

Civility is not a weakness. It shows maturity.

Can’t agree more. I was just checking my forums this morning and after I visited the Leica and The LF forum I felt an aversion to visit photrio, ‘people aren’t nice here’, I thought. And there this thread appeared, right in time. So I strongly support 5x7shooter’s message and in this context I cannot see the joke in post #9 at all. We are dealing with written text here, so irony has to be transparent and clear, if it is meant that way. We have emoticons to explain the meaning if in doubt.

 

[5x7shooter]

I deleted my earlier reply in case I may have misunderstood the intent of Alan's comment. I don't want to further incivility myself.

 

[radiant]

The increasing amount of people on ignore list is worrying me.

What we need is a strict moderation against any personal attacks or comments. I was told "there are old grumpy men here, don't mind about them" but that is not an excuse anymore.

Moderators: PLEASE do something before you have trashpile in front of you. I have seen this road before. @Sean

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Can’t agree more. I was just checking my forums this morning and after I visited the Leica and The LF forum I felt an aversion to visit photrio, ‘people aren’t nice here’, I thought. And there this thread appeared, right in time. So I strongly support 5x7shooter’s message and in this context I cannot see the joke in post #9 at all. We are dealing with written text here, so irony has to be transparent and clear, if it is meant that way. We have emoticons to explain the meaning if in doubt.

Yes, but a smiley face most of the time kills irony or sarcasm, in fact with an emoticon added, it is no longer neither. But either is not a universally effective or appropriate response.

 

[pentaxuser]

[QUOTE="MattKing, post: 2335894, member: 6437
Being reasonably familiar with Alan's posts, I am confident his post was made in gest.
If I may suggest back to the OP, even a not well effected attempt at humour is best responded to with civility and patience.
.[/QUOTE]
I agree entirely with the OP sentiments but I saw Alan's post as genuinely funny and an attempt to direct a "home truth" about forums to all forum members via gentle humour. The same may be said of other humorous comments. I took them all to indicate that the occasional review of what can go wrong on a forum is helpful
Maybe it is part of the British "mother-in-law" humour syndrome or even the pentaxuser humour syndrome

Yes there is a problem when one man's humour is another man's insult but it is usually clear which it is meant to be.

The other way to resolve the problem is to make it a rule that humour or whimsy will not be tolerated and replies that do not state facts about a thread or state more than facts will be deleted and next time the member will be barred form Photrio.

In some ways this might actually get the thread's originator to a problem's cause or a useful answer quicker but I fear most members would leave more quickly than is currently the case when a member feels he/she is being deliberately badly treated. The forum could become the equivalent of what I think is called "Alexa". My son and his family have one in the house. Alexa is not great when it comes to discourse.

Besides I have my own "Alexa" at home. She tells me things as well. "I'll tell you something" she says emphatically and then I occasionally get both barrels

pentaxuser

 

[guangong]

I haven't seen any more snarkiness on Photrio than with any other group of people. The reasons for forums in the first place is just because people have different opinions, . No disagreements, no forum.
As for information about putting together a large format outfit, there are a number of books on the subject. I haven't visited LF forum, but I suspect tstrong opinions on all sorts of topics. I could ask "Is a Deardorf 45 really wiorth the higher price than my cherry wood Wista 45?", and can imagine the replies.
A punch in the nose hurts a lot less on Photrio than when face to face.
I have posted ascerbic remarks on one thread and praise to the same person in another thread. That's the way it is when a lot of people get together.

 

[radiant]

I haven't seen any more snarkiness on Photrio than with any other group of people. The reasons for forums in the first place is just because people have different opinions, . No disagreements, no forum.

There is clear line between disagreements and personal attacks.

One thought came to my mind: maybe photrio wants to have conflicts because the users want those too? If users would be annoyed about that there would be much more discussion about this.

Clearly this issue is a joke to many and everything is just cleared by saying "the other forums are same too". Yeah. What if this forum would be different?

 

[guangong]

There is clear line between disagreements and personal attacks.

One thought came to my mind: maybe photrio wants to have conflicts because the users want those too? If users would be annoyed about that there would be much more discussion about this.

Clearly this issue is a joke to many and everything is just cleared by saying "the other forums are same too". Yeah. What if this forum would be different?

Have never read a personal attack on Photrio. Please give an example. Disgruntled doesn't count.
The whole idea is presenting different opinions. Of course each considers his opinion the correct one. I learn a great deal from these discussions. Sometimes on topics I was completely unaware.
We do liive in a world of snowflakes, where disagreement is considered an act of aggression. During my university days, from undergraduate through PhD, professors relished disagreement and discussion. Generally speaking, being non PC is dangerous.

 

[guangong]

Non should read "now"! (Another unintended correction by iPad.)

 

[BrianShaw]

Have never read a personal attack on Photrio. Please give an example. Disgruntled doesn't count.

Most, if not all, have been deleted long ago, or moved to The Soapbox where they persist to this day. Recollection of them is not value-added or in the spirit of civility.

 

[grat]

Civility and respect are always welcome, but frequently lacking on forums. Personally, I find Photrio to be fairly mellow, and if people consider it a hostile place, then please, for the love of all that's holy, avoid reddit, facebook, twitter, and most of the rest of the internet.

For those who thought Alan's comment was offensive, you have demonstrated the primary problem with the internet-- with only text, there are no social cues to help with interpretation of sentiment, and much of what we believe is reality is actually based on our perception.

However, the smiley face at the end should be taken as a sign that perhaps the post wasn't serious. Apparently some people simply cannot detect sarcasm.

If your first instinct is to assume a post is directed at you, with malicious intent, then life, let alone the internet, is going to be very unpleasant for you-- I'm not saying "grow a thicker skin", I'm saying perhaps you should consider, possibly with assistance, why you interpret everything as a personal attack. It may not be about you.

There are people on this forum with decades of experience, and willing to share it-- but the older you get, the less you want to deal with the same idiocy you've seen repeated over and over. There are people here who I've disagreed with strongly-- but it doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about, and I can argue about what they said, without making it about them, or me. And sometimes I fail. And if I can get it wrong, being the self-made expert I am, surely other people can get things wrong too. <--- That's humor. But true.