Water spots with and without deionised water?

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

First of all, great to see this community still very active.

I've recently been battling a water spot problem as shown in the attached. I thought I got rid of this about two years back with a filter on my tap.

Of note:
- This is 120 HP5. Image attached is top right of frame 10 (6x6). Usually happens on one or more of last 3-4 frames.
- Up until the issue has appeared again, I have always used tap water for every step of the process. Upon seeing the water marks reappear a couple weeks ago, I decided to change to bottled deionised water just for an extra two Ilford washes (which includes 3 min soaks), then also for the wetting agent mix (1:200 or 5ml to 1l) which I leave the film to soak for another 2 mins.
- I have tried more and less wetting agent with no change, all else equal.
- Wetting agent is Ilfotol, brand new as are all chems.
- I use a Patterson tank and do everything in the tank until taking the reel out and putting it in a jug with the wetting solution.
- I then simply take the film off the reel and hang to dry, always ensuring there is an unbroken sheet of water on both sides of film. No squegee, no fingers.
- I dry in a bathroom after running shower. Usually have the radiator on and it's about 25-30C in there. Have tried with and without radiator though, down to about 10C ambient temp on this last roll.

Are water spots like these always from the crap in the water, or could it be from elsewhere? Interestingly, I can't actually see the marks on the surface of the film, neither emulsion or non-emulsion. So I was wondering if this could be happening during development and it's actually in the emulsion? Using deionised or distilled water for the whole process feels a step too far for me as I worry about the storage and recycling of all those 5L bottles. But if anyone really thinks it could be happening during dev I could give it a go for sanity. Conversely, as I am using deionised water now for the most critical stage for water spots with no change, seems like I could just as well go back to tap water.

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

Just to verify: are the drop patterns indeed consistent with the orientation of the film as it was drying? Droplets pointing downward?

I'm puzzled, frankly, since the combination of deionized water and a gelatin backing layer on 120 film should protect you from these marks pretty effectively.

John Louis said:
Interestingly, I can't actually see the marks on the surface of the film, neither emulsion or non-emulsion.

Do you only scan or also wet print? Is there a possibility of contact printing some negatives to verify the spots are really there? Really, if an imaging system picks them up, they should be visible to the naked eye as well, at least with a little effort.

John Louis said:
could be happening during development and it's actually in the emulsion?

Yes, that's conceivable. Visual inspection would help here. If it's a development artefact, these marks will consist of silver density; i.e. they will look dark to the naked eye. If they're water spots, they're generally calcium deposits, will have a light color.

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

koraks said:
Just to verify: are the drop patterns indeed consistent with the orientation of the film as it was drying? Droplets pointing downward?

I'm puzzled, frankly, since the combination of deionized water and a gelatin backing layer on 120 film should protect you from these marks pretty effectively.

Do you only scan or also wet print? Is there a possibility of contact printing some negatives to verify the spots are really there? Really, if an imaging system picks them up, they should be visible to the naked eye as well, at least with a little effort.

Yes, that's conceivable. Visual inspection would help here. If it's a development artefact, these marks will consist of silver density; i.e. they will look dark to the naked eye. If they're water spots, they're generally calcium deposits, will have a light color.

I scan and wet print. Just to be clear, I can see the marks "in" the negs when inspecting on the light box and indeed they are dark, but I cannot see deposits as such on the surface of the film.

And yes, the spots appear to follow the orientation of the film when drying and being only on the end frames, this is why I am uncertain about it happening during dev.

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

John Louis said:
I can see the marks "in" the negs

What do they look like? Is there a possibility of photographing them? I know this will probably be challenging, but it might help.

Nicholas Lindan · Jun 16, 2024

Sure look like water spots to me. However, as Koraks says - you should be able to see something with the naked eye. They don't look like a developing artifact, not one that I have ever seen.

I use steam distilled water for the final photo-flo rinse, I can't believe that would make a difference. I make up a stock solution of photo-flo and 91% isopropyl alcohol such that adding 1oz of this mixture to 7oz distilled water makes a working solution. Then I wet my fingers and gently squeegee the bulk of the water from the film. I don't get water spots, but who knows why - it could be that using tap water with no photo-flo would work as well for me.

All I can suggest is adding alcohol - 2oz per 16oz tank - and gently sqeegeeing the film. The alcohol makes a big improvement in the sheeting action.

I've never had the finger method scratch the film (knock on wood) while using a rubber squeegee did result in scratches.

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

koraks said:
OK, thanks for clearing that up.

What do they look like? Is there a possibility of photographing them? I know this will probably be challenging, but it might help.

Sorry, I edited my post after you replied to say they are dark which indeed may be instructive. See attached

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

Hmm, any change of making the marks visible with reflected light instead of transmissive? Transmissive it's always going to look dense. Might be even more challenging to picture it this way, sorry...

GLS · Jun 16, 2024

I have not used traditional detergent-based wetting agents for ages now, as I found they would nearly always still leave some residue on the film. I switched to the following final rinse protocol, and now never get residues:

- After the usual washing routine with tap water, I do another rinse of the film by using a tank's worth of deionised/distilled water with a 2 minute soak, then discard.
- A final rinse is then performed by briefly submerging the film in a 95:5 mixture of deionised/distilled water : high purity grade (99+%) IPA before hanging to dry. The IPA performs a wetting function and speeds drying somewhat. I never use a squeegee.

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

koraks said:
Hmm, any change of making the marks visible with reflected light instead of transmissive? Transmissive it's always going to look dense. Might be even more challenging to picture it this way, sorry...

As I say, this is what I am struggling with. I am unable to see it when reflecting the light off either surface of the film. It does appear like it's just in the developed image in this respect.

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

I get it; yeah, that's odd.
I can only imagine these to be some kind of water spots, and they'd be hard to spot (heh) in reflected light because the gelatin emulsion (on both sides of the film!) is similarly lightly colored. So it's probably only possible to really see this when looking through the film and then it'll be difficult to differentiate between silver density or other forms of density.
I don't really see how this could be development-related given the direction of the droplets, which doesn't seem to be consistent with any development process except maybe dip & dunk, which evidently you're not doing at home.

This is a bit of a stretch, but do you also get this when you use fresh fixer (assuming you reuse fixer a couple of times before discarding it)?

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

koraks said:
I get it; yeah, that's odd.
I can only imagine these to be some kind of water spots, and they'd be hard to spot (heh) in reflected light because the gelatin emulsion (on both sides of the film!) is similarly lightly colored. So it's probably only possible to really see this when looking through the film and then it'll be difficult to differentiate between silver density or other forms of density.
I don't really see how this could be development-related given the direction of the droplets, which doesn't seem to be consistent with any development process except maybe dip & dunk, which evidently you're not doing at home.

This is a bit of a stretch, but do you also get this when you use fresh fixer (assuming you reuse fixer a couple of times before discarding it)?

Yeah it's fresh fixer. Something I have just considered is that I have a bit of an OCD habit atm of once I've poured out the fixer, then poured in the first wash water, before I start the wash I take the reel out of the tank briefly to check it has fully fixed, put it back in, then begin wash. Possible culprit?

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

No, I don't see how that could be harmful at all, really.

brian steinberger · Jun 16, 2024

John, I’ve been down this road. Using only distilled water final rinses and NO wetting agent can leave differential drying marks. This is when the water cannot slide off the film and a drop or so of water sits on the film a long time and causes density changes around where the drop sits.

The answer is to use a wetting agent after the distilled water rinses to allow the water to slide off the film. But too much drying agent can cause marks which appear much like the picture you’ve attached. The key is to find the correct amount of wetting agent. Usually the manufacturers recommended dilutions are too strong. For 120 HP5 I use 5 drops in 500ml of distilled water. Here is my final wash routine. For me this works perfect every time.

Final wash in running water for 8 minutes. Fill tank with distilled water agitate 20 times, let sit for a minute. Dump and refill tank with distilled water second time and agitate 20 times, let sit for one minute. I do these two distilled water rinses because I have very hard tap water. After these two rinses I add 5 drops of photo flo and fill the tank (with the reels out) with distilled water, drop the reels in and let sit for 30 seconds or so. Take out, take film off and see saw the film through the photo flo one last time and hang to dry, no touching. Now the one thing I do that I also highly recommend is hanging at an angle. Doesn’t have to be 45 degrees but any kind of angle you can do even if it’s 20-30 degrees helps the water flow off without needed to make it all the way to the bottom off the film. If you cannot do this I would recommend after see sawing the film through the photo flo to hold the film in front of you at an angle for about 10-15 seconds, then hang to dry.

I’ve also found the for my 35mm film I need 20 drops in 500ml of distilled water to not get marks. You can test this with a scrap piece of film. Take a film strip already developed and put in distilled water and take out, you can see how the water wants to bunch together and form a line almost. Start adding drops off photo flo to that water and dip film again, and again. At some point the water will form a thin even layer when you pull the film out. This is the amount of photo flo you should use.

I’d recommend using less photo flo and hanging at an angle if you can. But don’t give up the final distilled water rinses. Just need to find the right amount of drops of wetting agent.

bernard_L · Jun 16, 2024

brian steinberger said:
For 120 HP5 I use 5 drops in 500ml of distilled water. Here is my final wash routine. For me this works perfect every time.

I’ve also found the for my 35mm film I need 20 drops in 500ml of distilled water to not get marks.

Can you please state explicitly what wetting agent you use. There is the "old" Kodak Photo-FLo officially 1+600, then the watered-down version for Europe, to be diluted 1+200, then also Agfa Agepon, recommended dilution 1+200, and whatnot...

brian steinberger said:
You can test this with a scrap piece of film. Take a film strip already developed and put in distilled water and take out, you can see how the water wants to bunch together and form a line almost. Start adding drops off photo flo to that water and dip film again, and again. At some point the water will form a thin even layer when you pull the film out. This is the amount of photo flo you should use.

Interesting! An experimental-based prescription. I'll try it next time, which is within one hour

brian steinberger said:
Take out, take film off and see saw the film through the photo flo one last time

For those who wonder, the goal is to have the film emerge from the (water+wetting_agent) slowly enough that no bubbles rise with the film, only a uniform layer of liquid.

bernard_L · Jun 16, 2024

John Louis said:
Yeah it's fresh fixer. Something I have just considered is that I have a bit of an OCD habit atm of once I've poured out the fixer, then poured in the first wash water, before I start the wash I take the reel out of the tank briefly to check it has fully fixed, put it back in, then begin wash. Possible culprit?

Not the culprit, IMO. Except you are not checking complete fixing at the right point in your process, because you might be at the edge of incomplete fixation. I lift the reel from the fixer after ~1min (it has probably cleared at 30s). If clear, I put it back for another minute. If not, continue fixing. In all cases for at least twice the clearing time. And no, incompletely fixed film will not fog; at least not after 30s in an acid fixer and/or following an acid stop bath.

John Louis said:
As I say, this is what I am struggling with. I am unable to see it when reflecting the light off either surface of the film. It does appear like it's just in the developed image in this respect.

Not consistent with water marks. It would rather go in the other direction, meaning it takes very little "stuff" to be visible in reflection, so little that transmission is not affected in a meaningful way.

Could these be stress-induced latent patterns; I've seen such things after fighting to load a film on a reel and some kinks were created in the process.

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

brian steinberger said:
John, I’ve been down this road. Using only distilled water final rinses and NO wetting agent can leave differential drying marks. This is when the water cannot slide off the film and a drop or so of water sits on the film a long time and causes density changes around where the drop sits.

The answer is to use a wetting agent after the distilled water rinses to allow the water to slide off the film. But too much drying agent can cause marks which appear much like the picture you’ve attached. The key is to find the correct amount of wetting agent. Usually the manufacturers recommended dilutions are too strong. For 120 HP5 I use 5 drops in 500ml of distilled water. Here is my final wash routine. For me this works perfect every time.

Final wash in running water for 8 minutes. Fill tank with distilled water agitate 20 times, let sit for a minute. Dump and refill tank with distilled water second time and agitate 20 times, let sit for one minute. I do these two distilled water rinses because I have very hard tap water. After these two rinses I add 5 drops of photo flo and fill the tank (with the reels out) with distilled water, drop the reels in and let sit for 30 seconds or so. Take out, take film off and see saw the film through the photo flo one last time and hang to dry, no touching. Now the one thing I do that I also highly recommend is hanging at an angle. Doesn’t have to be 45 degrees but any kind of angle you can do even if it’s 20-30 degrees helps the water flow off without needed to make it all the way to the bottom off the film. If you cannot do this I would recommend after see sawing the film through the photo flo to hold the film in front of you at an angle for about 10-15 seconds, then hang to dry.

I’ve also found the for my 35mm film I need 20 drops in 500ml of distilled water to not get marks. You can test this with a scrap piece of film. Take a film strip already developed and put in distilled water and take out, you can see how the water wants to bunch together and form a line almost. Start adding drops off photo flo to that water and dip film again, and again. At some point the water will form a thin even layer when you pull the film out. This is the amount of photo flo you should use.

I’d recommend using less photo flo and hanging at an angle if you can. But don’t give up the final distilled water rinses. Just need to find the right amount of drops of wetting agent.

Thanks Brian, yeah hanging an angle has been a thought as all that water is draining for quite a while and I'm not getting any excess off at all, just hanging. I have reduced wetting agent quite a bit already but will give that a shot too.

It's interesting the differing opinions on the sheeting aspect with some people saying they try and get most of water off. I just hate touching emulsion in any way especially with sky heavy stuff.

JerseyDoug · Jun 16, 2024

I use the Ilford 5+10+20 inversions washing method but after the 20 inversions I do not pour the water out but rather add 1 drop of LFN for 35mm (2 drops for 120) and do 5 more inversions before I pour the water out. I then hang the film in the stall shower and use 1 or 2 Kimwipes to gently wipe down both sides of the film. The film is dry to the touch very quickly. I get no scratches, no water spots and virtually no dust.

I use 100% steam distilled water for my 250ml SS tank (developer + plain water stop + 3x wash = 1.25 liter). For my 500ml Paterson tank I use distilled water for only the developer and the final (20 inversions) wash.

Nicholas Lindan · Jun 16, 2024

Photo-Flo 200 is made with Propylene Glycol, is relatively safe if swallowed, and sold as a consumer product.

Photo-Flo 600 is made with Ethylene Glycol (the same stuff that's in automotive antifreeze), is poisonous if swallowed, and is sold for use in automatic processors. Ethylene Glycol tastes sweet along with being poisonous - not a good combination if young children (or really pissed-off spouses) are in the house.

Along with Jersey Doug I do a light squeeging to remove the bulk of the water. It may be that all the OP has to do is run the film between their fingers or use a few folded Kimwipes to fix the water spotting problem. The less water on the film, the fewer water spots, n'est ce pas?

bernard_L · Jun 16, 2024

Nicholas Lindan said:
Photo-Flo 200 is made with Propylene Glycol, is relatively safe if swallowed, and sold as a consumer product.

Photo-Flo 600 is made with Ethylene Glycol (the same stuff that's in automotive antifreeze), is poisonous if swallowed, and is sold for use in automatic processors. Ethylene Glycol tastes sweet along with being poisonous - not a good combination if young children (or really pissed-off spouses) are in the house.

Interesting. Thank you. I thought Kodak was selling its stuff diluted 1+2, good enough for Yurp'eans.
I'm still with the same bottle of Photo-FLo 600 bought in Yurp 40 years ago. Must remember not to swallow.

Doremus Scudder · Jun 16, 2024

These look like differential drying marks to me. Since everything you describe seems in order, there are only a couple of things I could suggest you try.

1. increase your soak time in the distilled water/wetting agent mix to five minutes. That helped me when I had really hard water.

2. Reduce the amount of wetting agent you are using to the minimum needed to cause complete sheeting action (no droplets or empty spots).

3. Squeegee gently between index and middle finger to remove excess liquid.

4. Hang your film at a slight angle to dry.

If that doesn't do the trick, the next place to look is development or pre-development.

Hope that helps,

Doremus

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

bernard_L said:
Except you are not checking complete fixing at the right point in your process

FYI The rationale behind asking about the fixer was not incomplete fixing, but rather debris floating around in the fixer (possibly as a result of onset of sulfuring out; i.e. collodial sulfur), attaching itself to the emulsion during fixing. However, the geometry of the defect isn't consistent with this.

John Louis · Jun 16, 2024

Thanks all. Differential marks make the most sense to me from the suggestions and looking at the pattern.

As such, I am going to keep all else equal and fashion a way to hang the film at an angle. I've not shot quite as much, but I have never had an issue with these marks on sheet film (which I hang at about 45 degrees) and given the problem never impacts the first 8 frames of my rolls, it follows that the length of water runoff vs sheet film is evidently a pretty big factor in the equation. I feel quite confident that this has to show at least some improvement.

I will first give this ago before resorting to fingers/wipes of excess water.

I'll report back in the week.

Pieter12 · Jun 16, 2024

Could the deionized water somehow be removing something from the emulsion or affecting the chemistry? Have you tried just plain distilled water?

brian steinberger · Jun 16, 2024

Pieter12 said:
Could the deionized water somehow be removing something from the emulsion or affecting the chemistry? Have you tried just plain distilled water?

In my experience you cannot use just distilled water for final rinse as you risk differential drying marks. Unless you squeegee.

Pieter12 · Jun 16, 2024

brian steinberger said:
In my experience you cannot use just distilled water for final rinse as you risk differential drying marks. Unless you squeegee.

With a wetting agent.

Water spots with and without deionised water?

John Louis

Attachments

koraks

Moderator

John Louis

koraks

Moderator

Nicholas Lindan

Advertiser

John Louis

Attachments

koraks

Moderator

GLS

John Louis

koraks

Moderator

John Louis

koraks

Moderator

brian steinberger

bernard_L

bernard_L

John Louis

JerseyDoug

Nicholas Lindan

Advertiser

bernard_L

Doremus Scudder

koraks

Moderator

John Louis

Pieter12

brian steinberger

Pieter12

Water spots with and without deionised water?

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Advertiser

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Advertiser

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency