water quality questions for alt process

removed account4 · Aug 31, 2015

NedL's mottling problem with his salt prints and wash water
and Bob Carnie's gum printing wash out problems
got me thinking about how water quality &c effects print quality.

is there a record what the water profile / water quality of places was like
when some of the alternative processes were born?

i imagine talbot's local water supply ( well? local stream ? ) is extremely
different than what NedL is using, full of all sorts of "stuff" and
the water that some of the masters who invented Gum Print's water
(city water? well water? local stream? ) is extremely different than what
currently comes out of the tap in toronto and elsewhere.

it is a regular thing among zymurgists to match the water profiles of areas
where they are replicating local fermented beverages ... the brewer
knows his/her own water and what's in ( or not in ) it and adds things to match
prague for example if he/she is making a classic czech pilsner.
seeing water and light are the 2 constants in alternative processes ...
have there been any people who have researched what the different water was like
and the best way to alter one's own water supply ( including adding things to distilled water )
to match "the originals".

Vaughn · Aug 31, 2015

The pH of the local water would seem to me to have the greatest effect on the processes, as some iron processes are very sensitive to that, and even carbon printing is affected, as the gelatin softens to a greater extent in alkaline water.

I remember photographers seeing differences in a silver gelatin paper's ability to split tone (specifically Portriga Rapid in Selenium toner) depending on the qualities of the water.

Bob Carnie · Aug 31, 2015

John -great topic

I really think water quality is much more of an issue for us printmakers, working with processes that are unique.

I think of Sandy Kings prints - I have visited him many times, watched him work , and now I wonder how much in his wash off success is due to unique water qualities.
I spent time with Christina Anderson in Project Basho , and in my case had terrible problems, but my assistant went to Ron Reeder's darkroom in Seattle area and wash off was not
an issue.

I will do some tests with different Ph levels of wash off water here over the next few months and see if this is an issue.

Remember the days when people said you couldn't print Pt pd in certain seasons, I always attributed this to not having a controlled humidity, but now me thinks it may
be more than that , as I would imagine PH levels in water can change season to season.?

Bob Carnie · Aug 31, 2015

I have had toning issues with Silver for sure, over the last 20 years

Vaughn said:
The pH of the local water would seem to me to have the greatest effect on the processes, as some iron processes are very sensitive to that, and even carbon printing is affected, as the gelatin softens to a greater extent in alkaline water.

I remember photographers seeing differences in a silver gelatin paper's ability to split tone (specifically Portriga Rapid in Selenium toner) depending on the qualities of the water.

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 31, 2015

I have a darkroom in Sacramento, Ca and work with alt process in Davis, ca too. It seems that my cyanotypes are different. Sacramento has great quality water from snow melt from the sierras while Davis well water is full of boron. I prefer to work alt processes in Sacramento, but since I live in Davis, I work mostly in Davis. Well water suck.

Bob Carnie · Aug 31, 2015

Interesting.. If you can think of your workflow between the two darkrooms is water supply the only difference in your process?

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I have a darkroom in Sacramento, Ca and work with alt process in Davis, ca too. It seems that my cyanotypes are different. Sacramento has great quality water from snow melt from the sierras while Davis well water is full of boron. I prefer to work alt processes in Sacramento, but since I live in Davis, I work mostly in Davis. Well water suck.

Ian Leake · Aug 31, 2015

Personally I'm convinced that water quality is a factor in Pt/Pd printing, although I can't prove it. In Willis' patent specifications he only referred to 'water' never 'distilled water'. But a few years later Abney and Clark specify distilled water in their instructions.

pschwart · Aug 31, 2015

what the heck is "wash off" and what process are you referring to?

Bob Carnie said:
John -great topic

I really think water quality is much more of an issue for us printmakers, working with processes that are unique.

I think of Sandy Kings prints - I have visited him many times, watched him work , and now I wonder how much in his wash off success is due to unique water qualities.
I spent time with Christina Anderson in Project Basho , and in my case had terrible problems, but my assistant went to Ron Reeder's darkroom in Seattle area and wash off was not
an issue.

I will do some tests with different Ph levels of wash off water here over the next few months and see if this is an issue.

Remember the days when people said you couldn't print Pt pd in certain seasons, I always attributed this to not having a controlled humidity, but now me thinks it may
be more than that , as I would imagine PH levels in water can change season to season.?

Bob Carnie · Aug 31, 2015

when I am washing each layer of cyan, magenta or yellow on gum over process I refer to the washing as wash off... the unwanted pigment washes off.

pschwart said:
what the heck is "wash off" and what process are you referring to?

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 31, 2015

My work flow may be different

Bob Carnie said:
Interesting.. If you can think of your workflow between the two darkrooms is water supply the only difference in your process?

I made a bunch of cyanotypes for my wedding invitations because the UV lightbox in my Sacramento darkroom will accommodate 16x20 prints. I was a production of many prints. I precoated the paper and let it dry for a week. When I work in Davis, I coat the paper and dry with a hair dryer and make my print right away. It's a smaller production and the wash water is different. Davis water is mineraly well water.

pschwart · Aug 31, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
when I am washing each layer of cyan, magenta or yellow on gum over process I refer to the washing as wash off... the unwanted pigment washes off.

Got it -- so gum over platinum, or straight gum printing. I also recall discussions on other forums about alkalinity creating problems like shedding, frilling, and blistering with carbon transfers. It took the addition of a couple of tablespoons of baking soda to my tap water (San Francisco) before I encountered this.

I have never had a problem with my local water supply to print pt/pd, but it can be very challenging to avoid fogging and staining using silver chloride processes like salt and albumen. It's hard to tell how much of this is due to the water vs the paper chemistry.

cliveh · Aug 31, 2015

I think the added fluoride gives an edge.

Vaughn · Aug 31, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I made a bunch of cyanotypes for my wedding invitations because the UV lightbox in my Sacramento darkroom will accommodate 16x20 prints. I was a production of many prints. I precoated the paper and let it dry for a week. When I work in Davis, I coat the paper and dry with a hair dryer and make my print right away. It's a smaller production and the wash water is different. Davis water is mineraly well water.

The moisture content of the paper during exposure would give some differences in results, in addition to the water quality/source.

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 31, 2015

Thanks Vaughn

Vaughn said:
The moisture content of the paper during exposure would give some differences in results, in addition to the water quality/source.

That's what I love and hate about alt process. It's frustrating at times but once you know the quirks of the process, it opens up the door to mastering it. I discovered that humidity of the paper is huge with Ziatypes. The trick for me is to get the emulsion dry enough so it doesn't ruin your neg but also to get your paper humid enough to get a decent. I bought a thrift store clothes steamer for that purpose. I also made a humidity chamber for the same purpose.

removed account4 · Aug 31, 2015

there is a fellow formerly on flickr now ipernety who was doing silver gel ferrotypes
and he lived in england somewhere, and just added thiocyanate into his ilford developer
and got PERFECT plates. ...
the listed ingredients on msds for the rockland developer is dektol ( similar to the ilford developer it seems )
lots of sodium carbonate, calgon, spent fixer and a smidgen of thiocyanate ...
i've tried his recipe, doesn't work where i live ... seems his water is already pre-buffered,.

===

pschwart · Aug 31, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
That's what I love and hate about alt process. It's frustrating at times but once you know the quirks of the process, it opens up the door to mastering it. I discovered that humidity of the paper is huge with Ziatypes. The trick for me is to get the emulsion dry enough so it doesn't ruin your neg but also to get your paper humid enough to get a decent. I bought a thrift store clothes steamer for that purpose. I also made a humidity chamber for the same purpose.

Others things you can try:
- put a vapor barrier behind your paper to retain moisture during exposure
- use BL tubes -- they run cool so less moisture loss during exposure
- add distilled water to your drop count (glycerin and polyvinyl alcohol can also be useful)
- brush the paper with a few drops of distilled water before sensitizing
- expose your negs in 2 mil polypropylene bags and you will never ruin another one

gzinsel · Aug 31, 2015

well, I will throw my two cents in! Yes, Its all in the water, ands in the air!! correct on all fronts.

gzinsel · Aug 31, 2015

what I wrote sounds sarcastic, BUT it wasn't meant "THAT" way. I was just confirming. The "wet" processes, by its nature is bound by it. (trying hard not to state the obvious) but at some point in time, the obvious has to be factored in whether your prints are amazing, horrible, or just o.k. \The water quality IS the big elephant in the room.

water quality questions for alt process

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